Sunday, March 21, 2010

Today is a Momentous Day!

I just read this article written by Victor the Contractor over at the Doug Ross @Journal blog:

Today is a Momentous Day!

Today is the day! Today is the day that all Americans see the naked ambition of fifteen percent of the population as they exert their will over the silent, hard working 85 percent. Today is the culmination of many years of hard work in swaying public perception, breaking down the walls of decency and building a climate of victimization and entitlement. Today the House of Representatives votes on the Senate Health Care Reform Act.

Never mind that no one has actually read this pork nirvana: this bill that nationalizes one sixth of the economy. Never mind that this bill is a slap in the face to all who work hard and don't expect or would accept a handout from anyone. Never mind that, on its face, the bill is a brazen attempt to subvert the Constitution of the United States and assign obligations to buy a service and criminalization of the God-given right to choose.

The right to choose not to buy a service one may see as a bad bargain, or the right to decide what is right for your own body. Those who have eroded the belief in right and wrong for decades; who have literally made a federal case over the right to control a person's body; who have cried that the state had no business, indeed no say at all, about what what one put in their body, believed in their head, and even what they did to their unborn children. Now those very same harpies have turned that tenet on its head as they grasp at the ability to regulate every aspect of what we do with the body God gave us.

A God they do not believe in and they do not seem accountable to. For we live in a time where the ugliest of motivations are cloaked in compassion. A time where the killing of an unborn child is seen as 'kind' as opposed to saddling a selfish couple with the 'burden' of raising unwanted offspring. A time where the lazy and the losers in the lottery of life are trying to maintain a lifestyle by taxing the driven and conscientious people who make this country hum with productivity. These are times that try the morals of men as those who want to invalidate hard work and drive have control of the levers of power and use that awful responsibility for their own gain and avarice.

Before you go on and whine about the poor and stricken and the addict who can neither care for themselves or have the tools to prosper in this world, know this: Life is a harsh taskmaster who punishes the dumb, the lazy and the foolish with scourge and tribulation until they learn to operate within the constraints of civilization. Lessons you don't learn or fail to heed as a child will be revisited repeatedly until you get with the program, succumb to the destruction brought on by your own lusts. Attempts to rewrite God's law, or common sense, for those agnostically inclined, will always result in an unbalanced society that careens hither and yon morally, until it sputters to a halt, mired in the ambivalence of indecision and relativism. A civilization that feels more empathy for the sinners than the sinned-against is destined to fail as the criminals achieve a critical mass and take the controls in efforts to profit from the moral decline.

We have such a state of affairs now. The ugly girl at the dance is now calling the tune, much to the chagrin of the highly offended orchestra. The drop-outs who threw stones at the University's stained glass windows now are the faculty; destroying the ideas and ethics that made this country great. There is a joke in the trades that men teach their children to work before they go off to college and get ruined. The ability to define right and wrong is the hallmark of a great society and the lack thereof the talisman of a civilization in decline. The loafers and anti-establishment crowd of the sixties are now deciding the tax rate for the rest of us, and they are not amused anymore. They are out for revenge. Revenge on the 'boy scouts' who kept their collective noses clean and worked eighty hours a week and put their kids through college and took care of their ailing parents and saluted on Veteran's Day all across this fine country.

'Liberal' doesn't even begin to appropriately label these Marxists! They really are the failed Communists who sewed the cancer of relativism into our public psyche and tried with all of their drug-addled reasoning to convince the rest of us that drive and vigor were not valid traits and conscientiousness was tantamount to selfishness. That success was to be punished, or at least taxed to support the 'less able' among us.

The Democrat majority in both Houses and the Marxist in the White House are poised to enact their vengeance today on all those who ignored their pleas for fairness and charity to the losers and lazy in society. Today they can 'get over' on the corporate toadies and millionaires who rule over and abuse the working class. If it were that easy, FDR, LBJ or even Ralph Nader would have so changed the collective zeitgeist to such an extant that this latest populist farce would be ignored, even maligned by the healthy, prosperous and well adjusted masses.

Instead we have an anti-St. Patrick leading the snakes from the swamps right into the halls of power. Its ironic that the 'most transparent' government in history has hidden its agenda and blocked public reflection on its programs. Its ironic that even the President is not sure what is actually in the health care bill and more troubling that he doesn't care by what process it arrives at his desk. It will be law, no matter how many seats are lost in the coming elections.

This rush to political suicide by an overtly socialist Democrat Party barely disguises the real intent of this travesty of legislative process: the health care reform bill is Communism. Socialism is a 'cooperative' between business and Government. Communism's hallmark is the Government's possession of the means of production. I trot out this aged mare to make a point: a government that can nationalize the better part of a native automobile industry is, by its very nature, Communistic. Such a Government should not be trusted to 'nurse' a substantially healthy industry. Period. If its too big to fail, its just too big.

If the Government can decide that an entire industry needs to be saved and defies its own Constitution to do so, then that Government is invalid and must go. I trust that the Supreme Court will strike this law as soon as the mountain of lawsuits start. But what do we make of a process by which a minority of the population forces its mindset on the majority? Under what authority have GM and Chrysler been seized? Its not Constitutional. And neither is this health care bill.

Yes, today is a momentous day! It is the day we declare war on Liberalism. Today is the day we record the vote for this Communistic legislation. Today we make plans to campaign against our socialist Senators, reprobate Representatives and power-hungry President. And, pass or fail, we will know who voted for our 'right to choose' and who opted for a 'Stalinization' of our legislative process. It works both ways: Freedom of choice extends to the right to choose NOT to do, buy or consume anything, for whatever reason.

"Give me Liberty or give me death!"

Victor The Contractor (Source)


ar said...

I'm shopping today as I presume an outcome of death spiral over the big forced vote behind closed minds, doors, rather.

Yes, indeed. I'm feeling a bit leathery today and i'm feeling a need to holster some of the held-in emotions from over-oppressives dictating when i can wipe my own self.

And straping on a belt for my mid-section to holster my emotions forced upon me by ever pressing criminals posing as elected officials.

Perhaps another notch on the belt will tighten it up enough that my .44 doesn't set too low; and it's easy enough to reach.

Words escape me, wearing my peace-maker. I guess that's apprapoe. What else is there to say? Reasoning has failed, compromise quickly moves to guillotine manuevers and the america people have been come against.

For those that don't know it. Get with it and figure it out soon or you'll be in the way when we go get them - and we will go get them, remove them from the building and burn it. Justice.

They have invaded america, the presidency, the media, schools, medicine and they are indoctrinating our children.

When the threshold of your self is defiled enough, strap on your gun, pray to the Lord and let's go to washington one last time.

Liberty is my .44 and Jesus my salvation.

Hyphenated American said...

I've written this on my blog today. Sorry for the style - English is my second language.

It seems like the ultra-liberals have been able to bribe and coerce enough congress-scumbags to pass the Obamacare. And as I said before, there would be hell to pay for this monstrosity. Obamacare is the very definition of unlimited government - the threat of which was forwarned by the Founding Fathers more than two centuries ago. The federal government, which is up to its neck in debt and unfunded liabilities, decided to launch the biggest entitlement of all times – the medical care for all. The spending on this new entitlement will surely dwarf many if not most of Federal programs and will make the bankruptcy of federal and state governments inevitable. The time of reckoning is at hand, brothers and sisters. Obamacare is the last breath of the liberal order – and it’s time to take back America from the thieves.

All patriots of this nation must stand together and fight back. United we will win! There is no blue or red America anymore – there are only those that believe in America the beautiful, America the free, America the shining city on the hill – and those that believe in welfare socialism and government tyranny. Today, we fight not only for our personal well-being – but for the dignity and honor of this country, for the right to look into the eyes of our children and say – we defended this nation from the perils of socialism. In November 2010, we will answer the crucial questions of our times - are American people worthy of the efforts of the Founding Fathers? Will American people have to right to proudly say “We are Americans” – or they will forever live in infamy and indignity of welfare socialism?

I am glad that the Democratic Party passed the Rubicon. From now on, there is no coming back for the liberal elites, no talk of compromise and middle-ground. Today, it is abundantly clear that we either will live in Obama-America or America that our Founding Father envisioned. You cannot have both.

The November elections will be the most important elections in our lifetime. If you don’t vote for America in November – you don’t deserve to be called an American.

Written by a Russian immigrant who loves America and who loves freedom.

Smile said...

I do appreciate this place, CBW. I appreciate most of your guests as well.

God knows the end from the beginning. Let us keep the faith together.

uptownsteve said...

Don't worry black righties.

The sun still came up this morning, didn't it?

Any silverware missing?

And most importantly, massa still loves you as long as you grin real wide and don't say anything to offend him.

Conservative Black Woman said...
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Conservative Black Woman said...

Congratulations UTS, your "Black Leftie In Chief" has successfully stuck it to the man. But here is the problem, he has stuck it to ALL men and women who work for a living.

Alex Tocqueville was right about Americans (especially ignorant ones, and most especially black quasi-socialist fundamentalist progressive racism chasing americans -- well , I guess that's redundant because who is more ignorant than they?) are Americans are so enamored with equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom. So congratulations UTS we are now all (un)equal in SLAVERY. I say unequal because illegal immigrants will have free health care but Americans will pay more or be imprisoned. I hope you aren't stupid enough to believe your premiums are going down or that the quality of care you received will increase.

Hyphenated American said...


Is it fair to presume that you are expressing your own feelings about the sun, massa and the silverware? I mean, you do sound like a typical liberal who DESIRES to be a slave to someone or something, just so he could fill his empty life with "meaning" - as Hillary Clinton said long time ago.

uptownsteve said...


I really fail to see how healthcare for all Americans is "sticking it to the man".

Despite the swill your heroes Glenn Beck (I still shake my head everytime I look at the clip of you jigging for that racist) and Drugbo feed you, black folks do pay taxes and many white folks will get free healthcare.

Just like all those GOP legislators who get free healthcare but want to deny it to others.

But CBW, please descrive for me in detail how universal healthcare is "slavery"?????

If you are satisfied with your current healthcare then stay with it. No one is forced to take what they don't want..

And this bill does NOT contain a public option.

So what are you talking about?

Hyphenated American said...


Let me explain this as slowly as possible....

"I really fail to see how healthcare for all Americans is "sticking it to the man"."

Obamacare will be a serious drag on the US economy and it will most likely ruin American healthcare. Moreover, it changes the nature of relationship between citizens and the "man" - now we are all government clients.

"Despite the swill your heroes Glenn Beck (I still shake my head everytime I look at the clip of you jigging for that racist) and Drugbo feed you, black folks do pay taxes and many white folks will get free healthcare."

We can discuss perecentages - which group contributes more in taxes, which groups gets more in government handouts. I could also ask you to prove that Glenn is a racist - but before you do that I will just say that Hitler was your Papa and Eva Brown was your Mama. That's just to show that making accusations about other people is easy.

"Just like all those GOP legislators who get free healthcare but want to deny it to others."

You really think you will get same healthcare as DNC congress-persons? You believe that next time you will be sitting in line, waiting for the doctor, Barack Obama will be right there, also waiting with you? And talking about high-quality insurance - Obamacare specifically target it with huge taxes, so that ONLY congressmen would have nice insurance.

"But CBW, please descrive for me in detail how universal healthcare is "slavery"?????"

You work for the massa-government, and massa-government will decide what kind of healthcare you will get. No ifs or buts, no escape - everything will be decided by the massa. And I am getting a feeling you will enjoy this.

"If you are satisfied with your current healthcare then stay with it. No one is forced to take what they don't want.."

Hm. So, let me get this straight, there is no provision that forces people to buy insurance? Hm. And no extra-taxes that would force you to to take another plan? And no government regulations that would you pay for others through higher premiums? Hm. You sure about that?

"And this bill does NOT contain a public option."

It surely does - medicaid will be drastically expanded. If this is not "public option"...

ziggy said...

UTS-You don't know it yet, and it's possible that you never will, just how ignorant you are. If it's possible,given your sad lack of understanding, when you start getting that oppressive feeling, revisit this blog and others belonging to evil conservatives so you can know what the heck it was that happened to you.

ar said...

Greetings comrads, welcome to the begining of documentralianism.

This is the begining of your relentless persuit of life, liberty and forced-health.

Unless you have already purchased your medicines for surgery, you'll not be scheduled - dah.

Ride bus all day. Get documentation for governMental health-force.

uptownsteve said...


"bamacare will be a serious drag on the US economy and it will most likely ruin American healthcare.'

Opinion, not fact.

"e can discuss perecentages - which group contributes more in taxes, which groups gets more in government handouts."

Please do.

And do not forget that from the Emancipation to the Civil Rights Legislation that black people paid taxes and died in American wars while still being second class citizens who did not get a full return on our contribution.

"You really think you will get same healthcare as DNC congress-persons?"

I am totally satisfied with my currrent healthcare plan so it won't change in anyway despite what the rightwing liars say.

"Hm. So, let me get this straight, there is no provision that forces people to buy insurance?"

Not if you already have it.

"And no extra-taxes that would force you to to take another plan?"

Name em.

"And no government regulations that would you pay for others through higher premiums? Hm. You sure about that?"

Totally certain.

You are just regurgitating the lies fed to you on FAUX TV and it's kind of pathetic to watch.

uptownsteve said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
uptownsteve said...

Listen for a second and stop leaping like seals at any nonsense that the rightwing talk show demagogues toss out.

This is good for America.

1. Your kids can stay on your policy until 26. Huge for young people who end up with low rung jobs with crappy coverage or none at all.

2. the Insurance industry can't kick you off the rolls for pre-existing conditions. HUGE!!

3. The Insurance Industry must use 80% of the money they charge you for actual healthcare. That's major, fam!!

4. By law, the Industry can not jack up rates without government oversight and sign-off. (Barring rates of inflation)

5. The Industry loses the ability to cap payments for illness -- which should make anyone with a chronic ailment jump for joy.

How can you argue with that?

MrsGrapevine said...


I like how everyone else is ignorant except for the people here. It's hilarious. Only the people here read the right books, and believe the right ideology, and yet I can point to several examples where you were wrong, dead wrong.

I can show you where your "Conservative" leaders were just as big a socialist as any "Liberal" leader. I can show you where your "Conservative" leaders out spent "Liberals" and you will still follow them off the cliff. I can even show you wear your "Conservative" leaders convinced you "debt" and "deficit" were actually good things, oh except when a liberal does it.

*Yawns* with your liberal socialist outrage and bashing. Grow up already!

There are always a small handful of blacks that go against the grain and think they're right, superior, or more intelligent. Hell, there were slaves that fault against their own freedom. Going against the grain doesn't make you right. Sometimes you get splinters.

The fact is you don't know anything beyond what someone else told you to believe through their words, their research, and their books. You have not live the history you propose to know. It's all propaganda. You don't need to read a book to know what's right or true. If you have God in your heart, you have all you need.

"I hope you aren't stupid enough to believe your premiums are going down or that the quality of care you received will increase." Quote:

Everyone knows this is not about health care or premiums. I hope you are smart enough to know that your party never had any intentions of reforming health care or financial systems. They will steal the money from you through corporations and tell you it's capitalism, when it's socialism for the rich. You are stuck in a matrix of greed. You can believe in your heart that "Conservatives" are more in line with God's word; a simple reading of the bible will disprove that, too. The Supreme Court gave corporations the same power as a person. Gave them the ability to throw more money at the "government" than the average person.

If you were really smart, you would know that the truth isn't in a party. The truth is not liberal or conservative. Until you realize this you will keep driving yourself insane. I'm labeled liberal because of where I stand on key issues, but I'm not bound or imprisoned by labels.

It's clear from your past post that you are NOT free. You are so trapped, because you can't even reconcile your ideology with reality, or your leaders. I swear it looked like you had a mental breakdown a few post back.

If you truly believe in God's words then you know where you will stand when the time has come, and hopefully it won't be tearing down one person because of their label, and lifting up another because of theirs. You can look in the bible and see God uses all types of people, and you might miss a blessing because you too caught up in who's "liberal" or "conservative".

Anonymous said...

only harsh reality will cause fools to understand. The time for discussion is over, for those of you cheering, keep on cheering. Time will reveal all things.

Blair said...

"please describe for me in detail how universal healthcare is "slavery"?????"

What is slavery? Patrick Henry described it as limiting the rights of people. So Britain was enslaving the Colonists because their rights as British subjects were being denied. Henry knew something about slavery. He owned slaves after he married into wealth. This was the great "Give me liberty or give me death" speech a year before the Declaration of Independence.

A right is something you can do if you want to but you don't have to. For example you can waive your right to due process. Otherwise it's a crime for individuals or govt to take your life, liberty, property without finding you guilty of a crime in court. The due process violation is the most common form of slavery. Other forms of slavery: segregation, public housing, military draft, mandatory education, taxes for entitlements to benefit private citizens instead of a legitimate govt function.

How is health care slavery?

It's mandatory. It's seizing property (money) and liberty (to spend the money). If it were a right, you couldn't be forced to buy it. The seized money goes to private benefit of private citizens.

That's not what America is about. If you want to donate your time and money to pay the premiums of others, that's fine, no problem. But please keep your govt thugs away from my freedom.

Conservative Black Woman said...

UTS~I liken this Healthcare bill to slavery because I believe that it is the first major step in transforming our Nation. Our government seeks (albeit incrementally) to take over healthcare. I believe that if the government can COMPEL me to buy insurance with threat of imprisonment then my rights have been taken away. I don't have faith in government to be a good steward of my healthcare. I believe with every fiber of my being that the gov't will eventually take over all private insurers after they "price-fix' to the point that employers drop private plans and we all end up in the "gov't pool". So no matter how wonderful the short term benefits seem now UTS, I don't believe this is good for our country.

I'm inclined to believe that the "evil health insurance companies" are willing to be "taken over". For a while anyway they are going to get legions of new customers who are forced to buy their product and pay higher premiums.

Conservative Black Woman said...

@Blair~Well said.

Conservative Black Woman said...

MrsGrapeVine~Everybody isn't ignorant just those who are still chugging the Obama Kool-Aid. So if the shoe know the rest.

MrsGrapevine said...

You have limited to rights now when it comes to health care. Your party wasn't fighting for your rights, or your freedom. They wanted to make sure the monopoly was in place so that private insurance companies can fund their campaigns. There was never any serious proposal to lower cost or create a fair market place. They need you to be slaves to the corporations, so that their salaries are paid. They are not fighting for you, they are fighting for a paycheck that your tax dollars keeps funding.

Capitalism is when you go to the doctor and pay the doctor a rate agreed upon by you and him/her. It's not your employer buying a coverage that's already subsidize by the government, and offering you a reduced income to cover the expenses of a plan that they already chose for you to buy into. You're already slaves to a system. A system that's a monopoly. A system that's now able to elect your government officials with their money and power.

Your hatred for "liberals" blind you to reality, and that's how they all get you. The "ignorant" ones the "liberals" don't get, the "conservatives" will certainly pick up.

The only freedom you have in health care is not through insurance companies or government. It's having enough money to actually pay for your medical bills when tragedy or serious illness strikes, which most people do not have. Lobbying for corporations to control your health care is slavery as well.

We all lose people, the government and corps are in bed together, and yet we're the ones that will get screwed. The question is not about ignorance, because no one is fighting for the people. The question is which is the lesser of two evils.

Devon said...

Well as a Canadian Conservative, I have grown up with a fully govt run healthcare system...and man, it ain't great...

However, correct me if I'm wrong, but this program that obama is trying to implement, is it not quite watered down from the original and at least not nearly as socialistic as Canada's or Englands which is a travesty!

I do know one thing that concerns me....I get very nervous with the govt. grabbing more for itself...

That point is beyond just the health care debate...a people lost there freedom when the State grows...the more disposable income we lost, the greater liberaties we lose...

Remember folks..Satan appears as an angel of otherwords, quite often what is presented to us as nice and appealing is actually dangerous in the long term.

By itself, I see some good in this legistlation....what I am concerned about is the bigger picture.

And on a more positive note, can this not be repealed down the in 2012 or so....or at least further watered down.

Devon in Canada.

Conservative Black Woman said...

MGV~My last comment to you was terribly mean. I'm very sorry, it was inappropriate and unnessary.

Conservative Black Woman said...

I mean unnecessary.

Anonymous said...

I notice a lot of comments regarding conservatives predicting the sky was going to fall after Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid passed.

Um, are they not broke. Are the healthcare systems in other countries not going broke.

How has Social Security been a success when I am paying into a system that may not be there when I get old. It may have taken 4 to 5 decades but these programs are infested with fraud and going in the red.

MrsGrapevine said...


I didn't take it too personal. I know this subject is polarizing and all people are passionate.

I understand you feel it's slavery, and that your rights are being taken away. I felt the same way during the Iraq war, and it didn't seem fair, and I couldn't understand why people were just following along and not thinking it through. I couldn't understand my tax money and my children future funding something that I felt was wrong down to my core. I couldn't reconcile all the lives lost in the name of "Freedom", when we were already free.

So, I get it.

I'm not arguing against it, I just have different view, of how rights are taken and how rights are guaranteed.

ziggy said...

Ms. Grapevine,

When you say, “You have limited to rights now when it comes to health care.”

Help me to understand something, when you spent weeks writing about your tough situation due to your son's asthma and your expensive premiums you were very much in favor of the healthcare plan. You were arguing that it was going to alleviate the high costs of healthcare, and that the insurance companies were greedy etc. I even accused you once of not caring about the downside, only caring about your free healthcare. Do you think that your “rights” will be more or less limited than it is now? And will the quality of your care be better when this goes into effect?

You now say, "Capitalism is when you go to the doctor and pay the doctor a rate agreed upon by you and him/her. It's not your employer buying a coverage that's already subsidize by the government, and offering you a reduced income to cover the expenses of a plan that they already chose for you to buy into."

If you believe that, then why aren’t you a self described conservative? Are you unaware that there are conservative Americans and representatives that propose the exact same thing? Why are you not seeking out and supporting those that believe this and work towards this end? I think you'd at least be in favor of the republican proposals (John McCain even proposed as much during the 08 campaign) to get rid of insurance mandates, increase competition by enabling purchase across state lines, healthcare spending accounts. Going back to when insurance was not tied to your job…You could purchase coverage for catastrophic illness and that's it. As you suggest, a return to straight-forward pay-for-service is what we needed. In fact you can get a reduced cost if you pay without insurance. A heavy gov't blanket over the entire system moves you further away from your desired end, yet you stood against people on this board bemoaning the evils of insurance companies, as if the gov’t option would take a solitary step in the direction you deem to be best.

You also say, "The only freedom you have in health care is not through insurance companies or government. It's having enough money to actually pay for your medical bills when tragedy or serious illness strikes, which most people do not have." Which is why it's smarter to push for tweaks instead of gov't takeover, which is what this is. This bill that is being signed into law will further reduce your take home income and erode your ability to do what you are suggesting. Again, health insurance was not designed to cover the small things like office visits and x-rays, it was designed for the catastrophic illness that indeed most people cannot pay for out of pocket.

You also say, "Your hatred for "liberals" blind you to reality, and that's how they all get you." Trust me, the same can be said for the "liberal christian" and the "liberal black" and "liberals" in general. Their blind hatred for anything Conservative, Christian, and White blinds them to voting in their own interest. Especially black “liberals”, they’ve certainly been “got” longer and stronger than anyone else in this country, but I digress.
And you say, "The question is not about ignorance, because no one is fighting for the people. The question is which is the lesser of two evils."

Although I agree we don't often get representatives we agree with in totality, the question is about ignorance, because the people don't fight for the people. What we witnessed in America on Nov. 4, 2008 was the result of mass ignorance. People still do not take the time to understand ideology, have no inkling of history, and can't, or perhaps don't want to see past the promises of "gov’t. goodies" they think they have a “right” to.

MrsGrapevine said...


1) It was one post, not weeks.

I'm a small business owner, we no longer work for any corporation and have been paying for our child's medication out of pocket. $350 for advair, and $139 for his Xopenex (that's just for a month). Thank God, we can afford it, and that he hasn't had to go the emergency room.

3) This bill will provide us with tax cuts, and will not make us "lie" about our kids asthma in order to get insurance. I am for the bill, but like you, I'm not sure about the mandate for adults. I do share that issue, but I don't thinks it's Armageddon, either.

To answer your question my rights are the same, it's still limited, but my choices are more open within those limits, as a small business owner, and as someone who don't depend on corporations or governemnt for my bread and butter.

2) I have said many times that I'm not a political Conservative because of my stance on war, abortion, guns, and that I'm a liberal because of my stance on several other issues. But as far as the way I choose to live my life, I am very Conservative. I have said many times that I am socially Conservative. I go to church, we now own two businesses, I am married, and have children in wedlock, and I just traded in my lease to drive a car we already owned and was just sitting in the garage.

3) The reason I'm not seeking it is because I am Christian, and I feel they use a manipulate religion to push a cause of greed. I really don't believe they have the Christian issue at their core. Before you counter, I don't think liberals do either, but they don't use it to gain votes for a cause.

I also feel Conservatives used fear and hatred to frame the debate, instead of proving they were committed to freedom of the people, instead of large corporations that fund their campaigns. For the past 8 years, they just let premiums rise, and did nothing to address the issue, yet now they are so deeply concerned? Last, I feel health care is right that shouldn't be based on wealth, and that's where I differ with Conservatives who think it's a choice.

4)I would prefer the old-fashion way, but some where along the way Insurance companies became monopolies and controlled "care. Let's be clear no one was fighting for that option. It was either corporate or government, and like I said government was the lesser of the evils for me.

5) I also said the "ignorant" ones the liberals don't get the conservatives will. So I was saying it goes both ways. Don't let labels get in the way the person because evil and ignorance is dominant on both sides of the party lines. That was point, not that liberals were better.

6) That's where we disagree. People have taken the time, they know history, and people weren't just following the masses, many people made informed decision based on the history of the last administration. That's what gets me the most. Bush was a socialist, he was fear-monger, he was big spender who also put debt on our children while hiding the true cost of war, he did invade a sovereign country, while letting our enemy escape. He did so many things counter to his own core beliefs. I still believe he stole an election. He was everything you now claim Obama is, but "Conservatives" just sat by and allowed it. It's so complicated that I realize we will never see or understand each others point. But when I see the hatred toward Obama because he labeled "liberal", and then see the love for people who did the same exact things, receive love because of a "conservative" label, I realize it's not about ignorance or freedom at all.

What I have learned in this journey is that anyone who runs as a politician will disappoint us, and that Washington is so broken.

I know what personal freedom is, I just believe there are certain things the government should protect or guaranteed.

MrsGrapevine said...


P.S. - You, Ar, CBW, have all helped me to have a better understanding of Conservatives. My hate has grown into respect, and understanding. I no longer think all "Conservatives" are evil. lol

Debates here are a lot more healthier than out there.

ar said...

By: Kitty Werthmann

What I am about to tell you is something you’ve probably never heard or will ever read in history books.

I believe that I am an eyewitness to history. I cannot tell you that Hitler took Austria by tanks and guns; it would distort history. We elected him by a landslide – 98% of the vote.. I’ve never read that in any American publications. Everyone thinks that Hitler just rolled in with his tanks and took Austria by force.

Short article follows:

arr said...

Glad to see your vine is still healthy enough to be swinging around these parts. I've had you in mind here and there, while i find some more truths to share.

Well, we're trying to figure out what to call the thing in gummint; Health-Force is their latest.

funny, ain't it. Health-force for people all over the land; that they made sick themselves with their nuclear testing and "accidents".

I have and appropriate name for "these people" who are responsible for our health, or should I say, poor health.

Greg Farber says truth at Candid Conservatives, I have mentioned. This link is to You Tube.

Anonymous said...

Ms Grapevine,
If you truly believe in God's words then you know where you will stand when the time has come, and hopefully it won't be tearing down one person because of their label, and lifting up another because of theirs. You can look in the bible and see God uses all types of people, and you might miss a blessing because you too caught up in who's "liberal" or "conservative".

Still thinking about that one. Yes, God uses all sorts of people, for HIS purpose and will. God is not apart of evil or wickiness. So if that fits both parties then so be it. Last I check we all are sinners. I understand what Conservative Black Woman is saying about conservatism. It is not about them versus us. What is your world view?
This IS about entitlement(healthcare) Not for all but for the majority of people who thinks government handouts are the way to go. This is about November 4th 2012 when the PEOPLE will elect a president;then you will see what the people think about health care and what is happening to their country. Shoot, who knows with the way things have been going, maybe Obama will find away to convince the americans that their votes do not count Big goverment matters.

Anonymous said...

I forgot to add this. This is about Obama's career. The first president to overhaul health care. Do you really think Obama cares that much about the people? The junior senator wanted to be president and he will do whatever it takes to remain our president for the next 8-years. He will continue to introduce new world-order ideas to the people;convincing the american people that socialism is the way to go.Let just say everyone is not buying it.

Devon said...

I think what is so frustrating for us on the Conservative side, is that Socialism doesn't has been tried and tried again for 100 years and it empirically does not work...yet stupid politicians and equally stupid people continue to push for Big Brother!

It's one thing back in the 30's when FDR was trying all this least he had the excuse that it was fairly new and innovative...but our modern day leaders should know better....

Conservative Black say things that I probably cannot say being Conservative White Man....but man oh you ever speak for me...

Be encouraged...all this is in the Savior's hands...and keep doing what is right and true...regardless of the cost!

Take care

ar said...

Well, I know it ain't Dick or Jane or Sally or Billy's fault for being unhealthy. Money is the reason for unhealth; hence Pharmacy.

I like clarity. It's why I like what Vic said in this article. He called it liberal - i call it despotic, at least, or progressive to facism. Money talks and anybody can get in the game, now; as if they were'nt already. So, now, when you vote...

What kind of animal is voting going to be like in 2012? BarrackOh nObama appointment of his majesty's self? (that should make you want to spit).

When and if this health-force gets off the ground, it's destined for gun control - (in the weeee pages).

Maybe the states putting their feet down are going to tell feds to crap in their hat and put it on. I still want my money back they stole and I think we should go get it - but not until it is Every One at the same time, no stragglers. (the retired stay home and watch).

I think the onslaught will quicken and get more blatant from the "throne". While I fix in my mind; if I go there, I'm not leaving.

It's my land, not some foreigner's abode for his desires. He is the one hiding in the dark of night. He hides all that he does; and says otherwise.

A relentless year as president to health-force this program the rest of the world despises because they have one already. But that's alright. Until people figure it out; we have all the stuff and gov't wants the money out of it, then it will operate maybe as good as AMTRAK.

If all the doctors get the same pay, the surgeon can now watch his trainee and hand him tools; whatever he thinks he needs.

Like when I build a house. If my helper and I get paid the same, he can put the roof system together and I can hand him tools - whatever he thinks he needs.

More than likely, they'll both leak. If i haven't been caught, yet, and prosecuted, i bought insurance for that, too. It's a sure-fire way of saying, i'm covered. I still do shitty work but i'm covered.

ar said...

Health care dictatorship: A crime against America:

(from NaturalNews) It's amazing that the day before the health care "reform" bill is passed in America, the FDA announces that one of the most popular statin drugs sold in America causes so much kidney damage that it might kill you. And then the day after this health care bill passes, the FDA announces that a popular rotovirus vaccine made by Merck is being halted because it is contaminated with a mysterious DNA sequence from a pig virus called porcine circovirus type 1 or PCV-1.

The reason this is important is because cholesterol drugs and vaccines represent what conventional American medicine is all about: Drugs and injections. It's not about health and prevention; it's about drugs and injections (and surgery too, of course).

And the legislation that was just passed is focused entirely on how to expand the failed system of drugs and injections so that it causes harm to everyone rather than just those who voluntarily choose to be suckered into it. This is the medical equivalent of a wartime draft that forces soldiers into battle against their will. Except this isn't a war against some foreign enemy -- it's a war being waged against your body by the pharmaceutical industry, the cancer industry, the surgery pushers and all the corporations that prey upon the public for their sick-care profits.

..natural health - from the plants.

ziggy said...

You've said a lot: "I know what personal freedom is, I just believe there are certain things the government should protect or guaranteed."

Some of us understand that one's personal freedom is undermined to the extent that government is given more and more responsibility to "protect and guarantee". History tells us that any government reaching for more power means no good to the people. There is no good in it. Any apparent good you gain is not worth it when you consider what you lose. Isn't there some saying about Mussolini at least getting the trains to run on time in Italy?

So Ms. Grapevine, the tax cuts you think you will get, the open choices you think you now have,watch and wait. That's all there is to say from here on out. I think too many people choose to look only at what they will gain and not at what it will cost to have it.

As an aside, do you know that this health care bill also included the provision to make the federal government the only means of obtaining a student loan now? I believe that as of July, you can no longer get a private student loan from a bank. Why does the federal government want to be the only game in town???? They will also offer students that go into "community service" debt forgiveness on their loans after 10 years. This is the left's version of equality and social justice I suppose.

ziggy said...

Ms. Grapevine,

There's an excellent book called "The Road to Serfdom" by Friedrich Von Hayek. Written in the 40s. I'd love for you to read it if you haven't already.

MrsGrapevine said...

I don't know why I am helping y'all, but states can opt out of the mandate, so if you really cared about your freedom, you can start a movement opt-out at the state level, or get it on the ballot if you live in a liberal leaning state.

These lawsuits the states are filing, is just for show and many want even have judgment for 12-18 months.

Democrats would organize and take it to a vote, I'm not sure what conservatives will do, but if you truly care, do something about it.

ziggy said...

God bless Ms. Grapevine.

MrsGrapevine said...

*many won't even have judgment for 12-18 months

I'm just saying, don't leave it up to politicians many are just capitalizing off your outrage. It's like gay rights to marry. Every time a state passed gay marriage into law, the people reverse it at the ballot box.

It only takes a grass root movement, trust me I know.

Anonymous said...

Uptown Steve

Obama said several years ago, repeatedly, that he wants a single payer universal HC system. That means government is the ONLY insurance company. This bill will destroy private insurance companies by forcing them to charge less and costing them more. Some are saying it will be as little as three years before their companies are bankrupt. Obama will THEN come along and say 'well, we didn't include a public option, but you can see the ins. companies are incompetent and failing, so now govt. is in the insurance biz'.. which is what HE wanted all along, just a 'progressive' slow way to get it.

Steve, God bless you brother, but you're an IDIOT about this stuff. :-)

JMK said...

“there is no provision that forces people to buy insurance?" (UTS)
Absolutely there is. This Bill forces all those uninsured who don’t qualify for Medicare or Medicaid to buy insurance or pay a fine up to 6% of their annual income.

“...the health care bill presented in the Senate by Majority Leader Harry Reid (D.-Nev.) would make some middle-class American families pay what amounts to a $15,200 annual federally-mandated insurance fee, according to facts revealed in analyses published by the Congressional Budget Office.

“A family of four—two parents and two children—earning $88,200 would be at 400 percent of the poverty level this year, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. A family of four earning $88,201, therefore, would not be eligible for a federal subsidy to buy insurance under the Senate health-care bill. If the mother and father in such a family could not get employer-based health insurance—because their employers decided not to buy their workers insurance—the family would be required by law to purchase a policy with its own money that would cost an estimated $15,200 per year, according to the CBO.”
“The Insurance Industry must use 80% of the money they charge you for actual healthcare. That's major, fam!!” (UTS)
The insurance companies now put 96% of their proceeds into healthcare, their profit margin is 4%!


“If you compare the revenues to profits, you'll see they have roughly a 4% profit margin. A COUPLE billion in profits. Not the hundreds of billions Obama says they have, let alone the trillions he plans on spending.”

ar said...

Why did states wait until now to file suit on this Health-Force bill? It should have been done before HF went into "law"; which gov't has no right being in in the first flippin place.