These incredibly misdirected people are idiotically praying to their golden calf, their lord Barack Obama. Many of the Christians that I know who voted for President Obama would deny that they worship him and perhaps they don't. But the stupid fools in this video-- well, what else can you call this?
Transcript:
We are here for the healing of the Nation. Like the prophet Jeremiah we cry out...Is there no balm in Gilead? Is there no physician?" Why then has the health of our people not been restored?
Hear our cry Obama
With the prophet Martin Luther King, Jr. we cry out against all the forms of inequality and injustice and health care is the most shocking and inhumane...
Hear our cry Obama
From heath care systems and industry that place profits over people...
Deliver us Obama
From lobbying efforts that block access to quality health care for all...
Deliver us Obama
From greed and fear that replace God's abundance and power of community with a mix of scarcity and isolation....
Deliver us Obama
From state ??? of immigrants, from blaming the poor, from sinful attitudes that deem health care as a right and a privilege rather than a basic human right...
Deliver us Obama
Protect all those who face illness without good heath insurance...."
This is wrong on so many levels. But the part about Obama delivering them from "fears that replace God's abundance"betrays the hypocrisy of environmentalism. Well isn't that what the whole green movement is about? It seems liberals believe that God only has abundance when it suits their issue and he lacks abundance when it doesn't. God is abundant enough to give health care to all inhabitants of this land legal or illegal without raising taxes or cutting medicaid but God doesn't have enough abundance to replenish the Earth that He created...only humans can do that through cap and trade (tax).
The liberal mind is utterly twisted and sick. Black Christians are equally twisted and sick -- because too many professing followers of Christ have thrown the Lord Jesus Christ under a bus trusting and believing that Barack Obama will "hear your cry and deliver you". Even if you don't believe that you still threw Christ under a bus it you voted for a candidate who stands in direct, undeniable, unquestionable opposition to those things you are called to uphold as a follower of Christ.
I'm not saying Barack Obama is the Anti-Christ, but he sure does have that "spirit" and so do the stupid fools praying to him in the video.
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."1 John 4:1-3
39 comments:
This video is unbelievable...when people truly stop believing in God, they look to the State as their savior.
As shocking as this video is, it's sad to say I'm really not that surprised.
It sounds like Obama, but I'm not totally sure it isn't Oh, God and the people's speech is overlapping. Either way, this group is very bad news.
How sad for our friends to be lied to so much. I don't think o is mu ch of anything at all other than idiocy, if that's a word.
A friend of mine (still), thinks o is a rock star. I love my friend. I send him some of the things i read. We comment back and forth in humor mostly. He makes fun of Beck and I spit on O and refuse to call him my (pres.)
I think most of what my friend says is misinfomation and the proof comes in nothing he has sent me to read.
He asks if i'm all those things i've been called. I asked him if he knows where my america is.
He wishes gov't was big, bigger, and biggest and i ask how do you pay for that.
I see health care as; keep setting on your ass with your hand out. My friends sees it as wonder-manah from heaven.
Oh, yes, and the Lord Jesus Christ thrown in there with it - where ever there is room - can't forget to throw jesus around for a while, heh?
It IS indeed pathetic, BUT I don't blame Barack Obama for this, I blame the delusional people THEMSELVES and the creepy, kooky leftist groups that foster this kind of idiocy.
It isn't Barack Obama's fault that some poor, pathetic souls have chosen to worship him.
An odd little irony in all this, at least to me, is that the two most influential people in Barack Obama's administration are David Axelrod (his Karl Rove) and Rahm Emmanuel...both highly politically partisan, Jewish (white), males.
Another irony in this particular demonstration is that these folks are actually asking to be delivered from the current system where over 88% of Americans have their health insurance provided by their employers and everyone else (INCLUDING ILLEGAL immigrants) are able to go to any emergency room and get the most advanced medical care available at the expense of those covered by their emloyers...all those taxpaying working people.
Personally, I AM also hoping for their deliverance from this system that gives away far too much advanced medical care for "free." An expanded public option will ration and restrict access to all "free public options," and deny these folks the quality of care they now take without gratitude.
They SHOUlD get rationed and restricted medical care....it would save the nation's tapayer's hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars!...AND it would ultimately thin out the numbers of these proud deadbeats.
This cannot possibly real? Could it? This is beyond the veil! I frankly don't have the words!
CBW how do you find this stuff?
The gift of exhortation is the special ability that God gives to certain members of the body of Christ to minister words of consolation, encouragement, comfort, and counsel to other members of the body in such a way that they feel helped and healed.
What are the other gifts, Attymom? What does that Good Book you reference say about rebuke?
What gift are you practicing?
Condemnation isn't profitable. Considering the Fruits as well would be profitable.
How long do we look for solutions from the same source with it's dismal results and failure?
What if the solution isn't a quick fix, coming from all these others? What if there is no permanent fix?
If a (rich or intelligent, or healthy or..) man who has much leaves what he has to his children without teaching the process of obtaining/maintaining, the children will soon squander themselves back, not too far down the line, to the same position the man was in before achieving.
That is the condition that 'will always be with us' but should be a moving target, depending on what we talk about as we 'come and go and while we're in the way'.
What do we place on our 'doorposts' that is permanent and able to make the change we desire? Are we repulsed by the more narrow path that would be indicated?
"The gift of exhortation is the special ability that God gives to certain members of the body of Christ..." (AM)
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I think the issue here Am, is what seems to be supporters actually PRAYING TO a mere politician (in this case B H Obama)...treating a mere mortal man as a god.
While I am convinced that there is no such anthropomorphic "god" that controls life and death (I think it's far more complex than that), I do understand the crude, primitive human impulse to both anthropomorphize god and to deify mere men....Hitler, Stalin and Mao, for instance, were all deified by their subjects, as N Korea's Kin Jong Il is today.
Most of those "deified men" do ultimately try to "be as god is" by controlling life and death (exterminating millions of people).
It's no coincidence that the same people who "worship" politicians in America, are the same ones who have no problem with and even laud tyrants like Chavez and Castro and had revered the likes of Mao and Stalin.
I'm not a Christian and so I do not seek to understand why some mortals would exhort or pray to another mere mortal, BUT I DO understand that it is not in keeping with what Jesus Christ taught....then again, very little of what most self-proclaimed Christians do is in keeping...
In defense of AttorneyMom, that comment was based on an unrelated conversation we had offline.
I thinking she didn't pay attention to the post because based on AM belief system, I'm sure she would defend the folks in the video.
"...based on AM belief system, I'm sure she would defend the folks in the video." (CBW)
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Defending people politically for showering a politician of their liking with adoration is one thing (short-sighted, as it then eliminates that person taking offense at the same from those they disapprove of), but for any self-proclaimed Christian to defend people praying to and beseeching in adoration (as a god) a mere mortal, is something else.
As I said earlier, the sad thing for these folks is that the policy wonks in this administration are NOT B H Obama, nor the ridiculous Joe Biden, but David Axelrod and more importantly Rahm Emmanuel.
Rahm Emmanuel was behind the Conservative "Blue Dog" Democratic strategy in 2006 and 2008, exclusively recruiting more Conservative Democrats to run down South and out West. THAT strategy now has over 25% of the Dems in Congress being Conservative Democrats. It is THEY who pushed through the NSA Surveillance extension, it's THEY who've balked at any increase in costs to the healthcare Bill, in short it is THEY, in keeping with Rahm Emmanuel's ideology, who've reined in the more liberal impulses of the Pelosi-Reid Congress.
And Emmanuel's mark on this administration can be readilly be seen by how much of the Bush Doctrine has been adhered to; (1) no troop reductions in Iraq since Bush left office, (2) the ratcheting UP of the war in Afghanistan, (3) the empty promise of "closing Gitmo" - IF we can find nation's who'll take them, WHEN we can get them tried by Military Tribunals, etc., (4) the INCREASE in the use of rendition (sending captured terror suspects to foreign nations for "more intensive interrogations and (5) the maintainance of the NSA Surveillance program and its protected secrecy.
I can understand the impulse of such desperate people want to pray to a human leader.....but, in this case, they seem to be praying to the wrong person. Perhaps it SHOULD be "Please we beseech YOU, Rahm Emmanuel to...."
No less offensive, but perhaps slightly more realistic.
@Smile, sit your azz down. I ain't talking to you. LOL
When are you going to put up my videos with Pastor Manning?? LOL
In all seriousness - I hope that was not UptownSteve who suffered this crime in Bowie MD:
Father of 4 Murdered In Bowie MD from a home invasion
http://www.viddler.com/explore/ConstructiveFee/videos/891/
Hmm...
I can pick out lots of hard G's and D's, I'm having trouble singling out a single B or M sound.
I believe there are some incorrect assumptions being made regarding this video.
The Davidians are merely coming home to roost and with the dumbing down of America their presence is growing exponentially.
The insidious arrogance of uptownsteve and Ms. Grapevine types to blindly push the nonsensical entitlement and victim mentality agenda ad nausea is pathognomonic of American society's decay.
History has shown many times over that when the constituents of a democracy realize and act on the concept that they can arbitrarily and without merit vote the largess of the treasury to themselves; said democracy collapses from the dead weight and a dictatorship ensues.
The free market system thrives on responsibility, hard work, original thought and sacrifice. The profits and gains of Capitalism provide each member of its society with the highest standard of living and the greatest degree of freedom as compared to any other system in the world. However, when the individuals' incentive is destroyed by a philosophy of redistribution of the wealth by virtue of entitlement rather than merit we are all reduced to the lowest common denominator. That is when the angry uptownsteves will throw their collective hands up into the air and say "WTF happened?" and then it will be too late.
It is getting to the point that you will believe anything that's against Obama! Even if it's irrational. I just laugh. Most of you have liberals in your life, and you know they are nothing like this.
I notice how anything positive is conveniently glossed over, and anything, and I do mean anything is added to the anti-Obama shrine. Not just ideological attacks, personal attacks, as if you know him because you read a book about him.
All I can say is, I just can't wait to comeback in 10 years and re-read our discussions. How soon you forget...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86LzKSsuB2w&feature=related
Ms. Grape,
Please name the most significant accomplishment of the Obama Presidency. His election to office and his lofty ideas excluded; I want to know what single concrete result of greatest he has actually followed through to completion on. Please, no excuses.
MGV~I didn't forget that video, I'd never seen it. But in fairness, while I question the appropriateness of the cardboard figure. They clearly were not praying TO him but For him.
The older lady, before she began speaking in "tongues" (which I personally believe was out of order at that time) she said "speak a blessing to him" at which time the children extended their arms towards the "cardboard figure" (again, not a good idea). Every Sunday in my church we do pray for those in need of prayer and use the same gesture of an extended hand....we are not praying to those individuals and neither was this very "pentacostal" assembly...
Anonymous@10:32pm~You clearing need to have your hearing examined...What they were saying is very clear.
@ Black Ink:
If you're going to ask me a question, then ask me a question. Your simple question is so loaded...
Liberals don't worship Obama anymore than conservatives worship Bush. Obama is not the greatest thing that ever existed. We like him because he was able to inspire the base. Al Gore and Kerry came before him, and no offense, but they were boring. Kerry or Gore would be like having Garfield or Chester Author as president. All Obama did was provide us with a voice and a platform to rally around. He empowered Democrats, that's it.
All this other crap is just jealousy from the right. I know because I was there in 2000 when Al Gore "lost" the election to Bush. Conservatives just miss the love and the power. They were so far in Bush's behind that none of them could foresee the year of 2008 and when reality set in; it all came crashing down. Bush's poll numbers delved into the abyss, and there it remained. Obama may be on the same Bush track, IDK, but only time will tell.
Palin may be your Obama in 2012. I saw conservatives at the rallies, and they loved her, even though they didn't know jack about her. You still do even though she quit her job.
To answer your question, if it really was a question:
1) Changed the global environment of hostility into one of diplomacy. Which "ironically" lead to the disclosure of a secret Uranium enrichment campus in Iran, that Bush would have never found with his iron fist policy. A facility that has probably been there for years.
2)Passed that economic stimulus bill that you hate so much. The one with "Cash for Clonkers" that has more positive reviews than negative ones. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not an accomplishment.
3)Appointed Sotomayor to the supreme court. You know his "affirmative action" appointee, that had more experience than most of the justices on the bench, but because she was a Latina, it must have been affirmative action. Because minorities who graduate at the top of their class aren't capable of getting a job without affirmative action, no matter their skill level or intelligence.
4)Ending torture, oh, I mean "enhanced interrogation techniques", because the United States doesn't torture.
5) Setting a timetable for drawing down Iraq troops that was more responsible than what liberals wanted.
6)Signed Equal Pay for Equal Work! Even though we all know women are far inferior beings...
7) Don't forget The National Service Bill. You know the bill that will help Obama create a "secret" army of peace and service personnel so he can take over the US in a coup d'état .
Do I need to add more examples because I will...I have at least 7 more.
@Attorneymom
Ouch! Damn girl! That's gonna leave a mark for a while too, and I have a meeting to go to!
No problem okay, LOL.
I do retain the right to speak to those who aren't addressing me, comment to those who might not listen, and be slightly ticked when others do the same :P
And seriously, thanks for keeping it fun, you're a good one ;)
@ CBW:
I know what sending blessing is, we have done it in church. Usually the person is there, if not we reach out to them.
However they were talking to an effigy (cut-out) of Bush. The woman told the kids to say "welcome" to Mr. President. That's some voodoo type of mess, and that was not a traditional blessing. There are no effigy in Christianity other than the cross. There is a fine line between sending blessings and worshiping. They were teaching those kids to worship.
My point is that crazy people are on both sides. I'm not interested in being painted with a broad brush. I am not even going to defend those crazy folk on the video you showed, nor am I sure they were serious. I just wanted to say be careful how you fuel your fire, that's all.
Ms. Grape,
The sad thing is that you are serious.
1. Obama's apologetic naivety has reduced the United States to a position of vulnerability and weakness that brings joy only to our adversaries and France.
2. Obama's "Chicken Little" spending legislation shows his complete lack of business acumen. It is irresponsible on virtually every level but since you choose to highlight "Cash for Clonkers (sic.)"let's evaluate the merits of that. 1st of all I am totally against federalizing the auto industry; but if a president does that in the face of free market economics why wouldn't he also regulate the "Cash for Clunkers" policy so as to benifit the specific two (2) auto companies he purchased on behalf of the U.S. taxpayer? In other words, why not restrict the monies to go towards the purchase of US autos? Why help Japan and Korea who were the primary beneficiaries of the program? Shouldn't America come 1st? What about the poor folks who were enticed to turn in their old cars that were already paid for and are instead saddled with car notes they might not be able to afford now or in the future if they lose their jobs? Sub prime here we go again. We won't talk about the bank bailouts and all the ear marks because they would dwarf the Bush fiasco in that regard.
3. Sotomayor will be shocking and ironically may negatively your agenda when it comes to criminal law issues. Time will tell on that one if her diabetes and poor lifestyle don't quash her impact prematurely.
4. Watch a video on water boarding and get back with me. Before you cite Sen. McCain's concurrence on the issue appreciate his extreme sensitivity to the subject because of his horrific POW experience. However, unlike McCain's personal experience and traditional torture techniques, water boarding only gives the terrifying allusion of drowning but cannot nor has it ever resulted in any objective physical injury to an enemy combatant. It is a safe an effective tool to extract vital information from people who wish us harm and sure as heck beats sharing tea and crumpets at the end of the day.
5. A time table philosophy for a troop withdrawal sure as heck better be negotiable or it is worthless with respect to sacrifices and advances made. The enemy needs to know that as well. As an aside, I hope that Afghanistan does not pale the tragedy of Iraq.
6. The market, not government, should determine employee pay. Notwithstanding, I agree that if any individual truly performs the exact same function then the pay grade should be equal regardless of gender, race or ethnicity. But merely showing up for work is not the same as actually working; and often times attitude and other intangibles play into the employment bottom line.
7. Obama's "Brown Shirts" shouldn't be laughed off with such a cavalier attitude.
What else do you have, sister?
MGV, while BI pretty much covered it, I’m surprised that you a self-proclaimed “independent thinker” would parrot so much thoughtless and wrong-headed Leftist pablum.
“Liberals don't worship Obama anymore than conservatives worship Bush.” (MGV)
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Which Conservatives ever worshiped/loved GW Bush? All the ones I’ve known or read merely reviled the “anti-war”/anti-GOP/anti-American hippies a whole lot more.
G W Bush was as Keynesian as his father and R M Nixon were. He overspent, especially on reckless and irresponsible social spending and hiked the National Debt from the $5.3 TRILLION it was on January 21st, 2001 to a staggering $9.8 TRILLION by January 21st, 2009. Of course, $3.2 TRILLION of that came over the last two years of his cooperating with the Pelosi-Reid Congress!
Obama has followed the Bush Doctrine on the War on Terrorism (the NSA Surveillance Program still going strong, along with the front 2 war) AND economically he’s merely “UPPED the ANTE” on Bush’s Keynesian OVERSPENDING! Libertarians reviled Bush and while Conservatives applauded his initial tax cuts that increased revenues in their wake, halving the DEFICIT by 2006 and his responding militarily to the global jihadist threat, they despised just about everything else he did, from his reckless overspending to his ill-fated immigration reform efforts.
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1) Changed the global environment of hostility into one of diplomacy. Which "ironically" lead to the disclosure of a secret Uranium enrichment campus in Iran, that Bush would have never found with his iron fist policy. A facility that has probably been there for years. (MGV)
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That’s not at all true. We KNEW about Iran’s nuclear program for years now.
Europe has taken such a shine to the Keynesian Obama administration that France elected a Right-of-Center President (Sarkozy), New Zealand and Canada have done the same and Germany just gave the Center-Right Merkel administration a lopsided victory days ago! Gordon Brown and Britain’s Labour Party (their version of our Liberal Democrats) is about to be turned out for the Torries (a Center-Right Party).
China continues to thumb its nose at the U.S., so does Putin and Russia and Iran’s Amadinajad and Venezuela’s Chavez just lambasted the U.S. and B H Obama at the UN...in NY!
How’s that for “respect?”
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2) Passed that economic stimulus bill that you hate so much. The one with "Cash for Clonkers" that has more positive reviews than negative ones. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not an accomplishment. (MGV)
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Over 90% of the “Stimulus Funds haven’t been spent and the “Cash for Clunkers” program was bad news...UNLESS you like the idea of YOU and I subsidizing other people to buy cars they may not be able to afford. What the “Cash for Clunkers” and other such “stimulus programs” for appliances are doing is creating the SAME kind of government directed bubble in those areas as the 0% down FHA mortgage and Fannie & Freddie BUYING/guaranteeing all those new subprime mortgages (Fannie Mae’s and Freddie Mac’s share of the U.S. mortgage market went from an already obscene 24% in 2001 to over 51% in 2008)...Conservatives and Libertarians don’t like these non-stimulating “stimulus programs” because they don’t work.
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3)Appointed Sotomayor to the supreme court. You know his "affirmative action" appointee, that had more experience than most of the justices on the bench, but because she was a Latina, it must have been affirmative action. Because minorities who graduate at the top of their class aren't capable of getting a job without affirmative action, no matter their skill level or intelligence.” (MGV)
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BI covered it very well. Most pundits Right and Left feel that Sotomayor COULD very easily become Barack Obama’s “Souter,” a jurist who turns away from the views they were suspected of having. She IS an ardent “tough-on-crime” jurist, as it is......
....“4)Ending torture, oh, I mean "enhanced interrogation techniques", because the United States doesn't torture.” (MGV)
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NOT quite...RENDITION (sending terrorists and enemy combatants to foreign locales for more intensive interrogations) has been ratcheted UP by this administration! Now THAT’S torture...and I (and I believe MOST Americans) are very much OK with that.
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“5) Setting a timetable for drawing down Iraq troops that was more responsible than what liberals wanted.” (MGV)
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There has NOT been a single troop reduction in Iraq since last year, before this administration began AND Afghanistan has been ratcheted UP. AND the NSA Surveillance Program that Liberal stooges claimed was "shredding the Constitution," is STILL ongoing and B H Obama has gone to court at least TWICE to protect its secrecy. All of that looks surprisnigly like the Bush Doctrine on the WoT.
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“6)Signed Equal Pay for Equal Work! Even though we all know women are far inferior beings...” (MGV)
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First, ironically enough, female staffers on B H Obama’s Senate staff made about 20% LESS than his male staffers. Seriously; Obama’s 28 male staffers divided among themselves total payroll expenditures of $1,523,120. Thus, Obama’s average male employee earned $54,397. Obama’s 30 female employees split $1,354,580 among themselves, or $45,152, on average SEE: http://news.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view.bg?articleid=1118682&srvc=home&position=rated...BUT, didn’t Walter E Williams cover this? As Professor Williams documented, IF women are discriminated against, what explains the fact that black women earn significantly MORE, on average, than white females? REASON: white women tend to stay out of the workforce longer when they have children. That, opting out of the workforce, and the subsequent discrepancies in earning due to the accruing “experience” is the reason for the on-average pay differential between men and women. Thomas Sowell also noted that, Thomas Sowell argued in his book Civil Rights that most of pay gap is based on marital status, not a “glass ceiling” discrimination. Earnings for men and women of the same basic description (education, jobs, hours worked, marital status) were essentially equal. That result would not be predicted under explanatory theories of “sexism”...
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“7) Don't forget The National Service Bill. You know the bill that will help Obama create a "secret" army of peace and service personnel so he can take over the US in a coup d'état.” (MGV)
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The “National Service Bill”? What’s at issue is indeed, as BI noted, B H Obama’s inane, naïve and non-sensical “Civilian National Security Force"!
Less than 20 minutes into his July 2nd, 2009 speech in Colorado Springs, Colorado, he deviated from his pre-released script and performed without the teleprompter net saying;
"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded." (emphasis added)
Then added, "People of all ages, stations, and skills will be asked to serve."
According to his plans, he plans to double the Peace Corps' budget by 2011, and expand AmeriCorps, USA Freedom Corps, VISTA, YouthBuild Program, and the Senior Corps. Plus, he proposes to form a Classroom Corps, Health Corps, Clean Energy Corps, Veterans Corps, Homeland Security Corps, Global Energy Corps, and a Green Jobs Corps. ALL of that is just mind-numbingly DUMB! And it’ll all have to be undone by the next administration.
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“Do I need to add more examples because I will...I have at least 7 more.” (MGV)
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Please don’t, nothing good can come from that, I assure you.
JMK,
Well done. Ms. Grape is now officially Ms. Raisin.
You, the Inkman and Digital Publius are the 3 wise men of cyberspace.
It is always a pleasure to read y'alls work as you hammer the naive insanity.
@ JMK, Black Ink:
accomplishing: to bring about (a result) by effort; to bring to completion; to succeed in reaching (a stage in a progression)
1) @ JMK ask me to name something Obama has "accomplished", as if he hasn't done anything while in office for the last 9 months.
Just because you don't agree with a liberal agenda doesn't discount Obama from having accomplishments. I really wasn't interested in debating them, but if that's what you want then so be it.
2)I’m surprised that you a self-proclaimed “independent thinker” would parrot so much thoughtless and wrong-headed Leftist pablum. (JMK)
I wasn't aware that only Conservatives were enlightened. I didn't know that everything written by a Conservatives was unquestionable gospel. I guess all the books and articles written by liberals should be marked as "thoughtless" or discounted as facts simply because the author is a liberal. Thanks I got the memo, now! Oh BTW, those list of accomplishments were sited from a Fox News article, but the sarcasm is all mine. (Thanks)...
I never said I'm an independent, that's why I'm surprise that we agree a lot of the times. I said I may be moving toward no label at all, but I have maintained that I'm a liberal or liberal leaning...I haven't crossed the threshold into being a true independent, because I'm left of center.
3) "Which Conservatives ever worshiped/loved GW Bush? All the ones I’ve known or read merely reviled the “anti-war”/anti-GOP/anti-American hippies a whole lot more." (JMK)
Did you not watch the "Jesus Camp" video I posted above? The Christian right, which is apart of the Conservative party, has in fact worshiped Bush. I know because I quit a prominent church here in Dallas, TX when the pastor said the Iraq war was anointed by God, and that God sent the U.S. George Bush. He also said if you did not believe in the Iraq war, you should question your Christianity...
Trust me, from first hand experience; I know for a fact that parts of the Conservative party were in Bush's back pocket. That's why I'm surprised you are a "Conservative" because you seem a lot more independent or libertarian; especially with your stance on abortion, gay marriage, and Christianity... (Right leaning, but definitely not a Conservative)
4) "We knew about Iran's nuclear facility for years"...
Did knowing about it, tell us how many? Did knowing about it get us into Iran? Did knowing about it put us into negotiations? Did knowing about it allow UN inspector's into Iran? Did knowing about it change the facility's capabilities? Did knowing about it make them report it to the UN?
Iran has been trying to find away into America graces for a long time now. One day we're evil, and the next moment Ahmadinejad is in compliance. Why because he wants to stay in power, and too much anti-America sentiment during an unstable and hostile Iran environment can lead to a revolt; an environment that has a lot to do with Obama’s election as President of the US. Right now Ahmadinejad is negotiating, and Russia is at the table. You can't tell me Bush would have been able to do that with his strategy...Not buying it!!!
Chavez is tap dancing, as well. He built a political career on anti-American sentiment, but as soon as America comes a calling he's answering that phone, his ultimate goal is to secure financial stability by pimping out the oil of Venezuela...He just wants global attention. Do you honestly think Bush thought Chavez was a real threat to United States? It was all political staging. He knew not to invade Iran or North Korea, didn’t he?
@ JMK continued...
Europe has taken such a shine to the Keynesian Obama administration that France elected a Right-of-Center President (Sarkozy) (JMK)
Sarkozy was elected President in 2007. I believe that was before Obama was elected in 2008. My math may be off a little, but I’m fairly sure. Are you sure it was Obama's Keynesian administration or Bush's that made everyone in Europe go right of center, which is equal to our left, or are you just spreading “thoughtless” right wing “pablum”…
Beside you’ve already partly agreed with me, haven’t you?
"That’s not at all true." (JMK)
Sorry that is just on your first point...This can get exhausting....
@ Black Ink:
I didn't list these to debate. I listed them as facts of accomplishments. Some I agree with some I don't. Mostly I was being sarcastic because you act like nothing has been done, at all. But what you meant, I think, is that nothing has been done that reflects his intention to govern from the center. But, I would argue that's not true either. Or maybe you meant has hasn't kept any of his campaign promises, but I would also argue that's not true either. Or maybe it really wasn't a real question, but a hyperbole. IDK!
"Obama's apologetic naivety has reduced the United States to a position of vulnerability and weakness that brings joy only to our adversaries and France." (Black Ink)
Nicely said, but where is your proof, let me guess because Cheney and his side kick daughter said so, right? Is that your theory, France is going to attack us too now. Our enemy, huh? Why because they didn't agree to invade Iraq because Bush said so. Their our enemies, now. Down with "French" fries, up with "Freedom" Fries. The fact is we will never know because the government is on both sides of the issue. Just because something is staged publicly doesn't reflect what's happening behind close doors.
@JMK says Obama is continuing the same Bush administration policies on war, and you are saying that those policies are making us less safe. Which is it, because it sound like you're going in circles, yet you agree.
"Obama has followed the Bush Doctrine on the War on Terrorism (the NSA Surveillance Program still going strong, along with the front 2 war) AND economically he’s merely “UPPED the ANTE” on Bush’s Keynesian OVERSPENDING!"
Are we less safe because of diplomacy or less safe because of more of the same?
2) Not sure what her diabetes and poor health has to do with her being appointed. I didn't know eating habits were a requirement. Is it an accomplishment or not. I don't have any liberal expectation of Sotomayor. I really think she's more center than what the right wants to believe. We can stamp this one as "Agreed Accomplishment".
3) I don't care if America tortures or not. Just don't lie about what it is. We have the right to do whatever keeps Americans safe, but calling it "enhanced interrogation techniques", is just semantics. I was being sarcastic when I typed that. We need to change our statement to America will torture any terrorist who don't comply with any of the Geneva rules, or rules of war. We will break your arm and feet if it keep Americans safe, and if you're fighting outside of the rules of war. Just don't call it "enhanced techniques" when it's torture. Just change our statement on torture, to reflect our new definition.
3) Then we agree that Equal work for Pay is an Obama administration accomplishment...
4)I understood war against Afghan 8 years ago, I don't understand it now. I hope he starts an exist plan, so that we can get out...I'm tired of providing social programs for other countries that we don't even support for America.
"Europe has taken such a shine to the Keynesian Obama administration that France elected a Right-of-Center President (Sarkozy) (JMK)
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"Sarkozy was elected President in 2007. I believe that was before Obama was elected in 2008. My math may be off a little, but I’m fairly sure. Are you sure it was Obama's Keynesian administration or Bush's that made everyone in Europe go right of center,which is equal to our left..." (MGV)
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First, Europe's Right is NOT at all "close, let alone equal to our Left." In fact, they ARE Center-Right, just as Conservatives here and in Canada are.
Europe's been moving right for years...doesn't matter whether it was Bush's Keynesianism, Obama's Keynesianism or just the prevailing political winds (due to the long-time failure of Europe's Keynesianism) over there.....that move Right proves that the Obama administration has NOT had an infectious effect on the Europeans at all.
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"@JMK says Obama is continuing the same Bush administration policies on war, and you are saying that those policies are making us less safe. Which is it, because it sound like you're going in circles, yet you agree." (MGV)
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The Obama administration has had to adhere to the Bush policies (it turns out it REALLY IS an adversarial world out there) after campaigning AGAINST those very same policies.
How humiliating is it that the same liberals who screamed so loud about the NSA Surveillance program being an example of "Bush shredding the Constitution," now having to keep quiet as B H Obama has presided over extending that same NSA Surveillace Program AND as went to court at least TWICE to maintain their secrecy.
Yes, I approve of those things...and I've said so many, MANY times. I oppose this administration's lack of respect for the Military and our Intelligence agencies and their returning to the pre-9/11 mindset that "terrorism is a criminal justice, not a military issue."
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"Then we agree that Equal work for Pay is an Obama administration accomplishment..." (MGV)
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We BOTH oppose that cannard?
I showed that even Barack Obama DOES NOT believe in "equal pay."
If he DID, female staffers on B H Obama’s Senate staff wouldn't have made about 20% LESS than his male staffers. Barck Obama’s 28 average male employees earned on average $54,397, compared to his 30 female employees averaging $45,152.
SEE: http://news.bostonherald.com/news/opinion/op_ed/view.bg?articleid=1118682&srvc=home&position=rated
I don't merely "believe" I KNOW that there are TWO very good reasons for the existing pay differential/disparity, (1) all of the most dangerous or "death professions" (mining, trucking, construction, etc) are overwhelmingly male dominated and those professions pay more than similar, but safer jobs, like office work and (2) TIME on the job, or work experience. Women tend to take far more time off for family and child-rearing reasons and thus average less time in the workforce than most men....thus the "average difference in pay." Women who work the same amount of time in a profession earn virtully the same as heir male counterparts with the same amount of time in their professions. It also explains why black females, on average, out-earn their white female counterparts - they tend to take less time off from work.
I've yet to hear a credible argument that a women with five years accounting experience should be paid the same as her male counterpart with twelve years experience.
The "gender pay gap" is a complete cannard.
"I don't care if America tortures or not. Just don't lie about what it is. We have the right to do whatever keeps Americans safe, but calling it "enhanced interrogation techniques", is just semantics." (MGV)
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That's not "semantics," it's naivete on your part.
TORTURE is the inflicting of not only intense physical pain, but permanent bodily harm to a prisoner.
John McCain was TORTURED, among other things, his arms and legs broken and his broken limbs yanked and manipulated to deliver ecriuciating pain...and permanent disability.
ALL our Special Forces troops are waterboarded as part of their training. They are NOT "tortured."
Waterboarding, sleep deprivation, keeping detainees in warmer or colder than normal environs and psychological distress (making them fear that something dire is about to be done to them) are indeed enhanced interrogation techniques, NOT torture.
Police all over the country employ things like sleep deprivation and psychological duress (ie. "Your buddy's in here giving you up, if you don't make the deal first, YOU'RE getting the brunt of this") all the time.....and it's NOT "torture." Cops are allowed to deliberately lie (telling a suspect they can go home once they give their account of the event) and they can employ intimidation and theatening to send the guy into the jail labeled a snitch, things like that.
Court TV (now Tru TV) once had a show called "The Interrogation Room" where it chronicled cops interrogating killers and breaking their story by continually questioning them for 64, 78, even 96 hours straight, correcting their tales with notes of what they previously said, etc. They ALWAYS broke the always reluctant suspects.
I had an uncle who was with the NYPD when I was a kid. He went to Law School via a NYPD scholarship and later became a judge. He was a bear of man, but with us kids he was a gentle giant.
Later, I heard from guys who used to work with him that he was the guy they'd get to interrogate guys who, did particularly heinous things like shooting at cops, rape tortures, etc. I ouldn't believe that, as his demeanor was so gentle and jovial when I was growing up.
They said he'd storm into the interrogation room, glaring at the suspect. Then he'd just sit across from the suspect and didn't say a thing. He wouldn't utter a word for a very long time. Then he'd suddenly bolt up grab two large telephone books and duct tape them around the screaming suspect's head.
Then he'd sit across from him glaring and snorting for awhile, ignoring the suspect's pleas of "Whaddaya want?....I don't know nuthin...Whaddaya doin to me?"
Finally he'd get up and grab a baseball bat and slam the sides of those phone books, concussing the guy, but leaving no marks. I worked virtually every tim. He always got everything - names of the accomplices, who did what, why they did what they did....guys would give up their own grandmothers after an ordeal like that.
Those were "the bad old days" but even THAT, as terrible as that was, it wasn't torture....although it WAS pretty close. A few of those kind of sessions could leave you with a permanent concussive syndrome...what they used to call "punch drunk."
Most people wouldn't want to know what has to be done to break hardened, vile scum like the Garridos who kidnapped that 11 y/o girl out in Nevada and kept and raped her for 17 years hidden in his backyard.
I know a lot of people are pretty squeamish now-a-days, but please, tell me a guy like Phillip Garrido (the kidnapping kiddie-raper and many other like-minded scum) don't deserve a nice session with some phone books, some duct tape and a baseball bat.
Please, he'd be getting off easy...
@ JMK:
That's not "semantics," it's naivete on your part. (JMK)
Here we go with the name calling, again, because I poked holes in your argument. Well, let me poke a few more. Then the name calling will certainly increase.
DEFINITION OF TORTURE ACCORDING TO UN CONVENTION :
"any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.
1) *I guess naively when they said act; I must have substituted techniques, not knowing that they were synonymous.* So you’re partly right torture is not equal to techniques, it’s just our techniques are equal to torture.
John McCain was TORTURED, among other things, his arms and legs broken and his broken limbs yanked and manipulated to deliver excruciating pain...and permanent disability. (JMK)
2) Is this your logic : John McCain was tortured. John McCain says waterboarding is torture. John McCain doesn't know what he's talking about, therefore don't believe a man who was actually tortured when he tells you what torturing is...
Here is my logic: JMK wasn't tortured, but agrees John McCain was. A man that was tortured would know what torturing is, and a man that wasn't tortured probably would say anything to support his ideology. Therefore, if McCain says it's torture then it's torture. If the UN definition which we signed says it’s torture, then it’s torture. If JMK says it's techniques...then it's torture.
3) BTW, Did I mention that I don't care what it's called? They are terrorists, and they should be treated as such! They were cutting off heads, so I don’t care if we tortured them; they weren’t playing by the rules. Stop trying to twist words and call people naïve, when it is what it is, torture. The UN is agreement, and I don't think terrorist signed it, so we can get around it without calling it "enhanced techniques"...That's my point.
4) I'm also glad you mentioned bones, because the US can break minor bones when training soldiers. They are teaching soldiers how to survive. Their intent is to test US soldiers, not to strip information from them. As you can see in the above definition of torture, there must be a purpose to gain information from opposition, not a training to teach survival. There is clearly a difference.
Last but not least, the Army doesn’t waterboard our soldiers 85 times, either.
@ JMK:
I appreciate the long story, but you are introducing so many new points that can take us into infinite arguments. I'm not against torturing terrorist, I'm not against torturing rapist, and murderers.
However, if the person turns out to be innocent, and a confession was created from these "techniques" then you have a whole other judicial fiasco to untangle.
Police don't just start off with worst case scenario interrogations techniques, it's graded system of alternatives. There is a protocol to follow before going to the next level of intensity. The reason it's done this way, is because some people will say anything if they are scared or in pain. That's why police aren't suppose to question minors when parents are present. It's easy to get a confession from a kid.
Anyway, I'm not trying to wander to far off topic. I don't disagree with you about the techniques used, I just believe it should be called torture. Drowning is dying, and simulated dying is torture because if anything goes wrong, it can lead to death. Dry drowning is real.
@ Xi:
I'm glad to be back in your graces, I finally earned the title grape, only to fall back to raisin. Doggone it!
I'll try harder to think like a Conservative, but it hasn't worked yet.
Naive, I'm not. If I was I would believe all the things you keep peddling my way.
Innocent people don't confess details of a ime that only the investigators and the perpetrator would know.
Innocent people don't give up accomplices who's prints (not in the system) are on the scene.
And yes....police DO "start off with the worst case scenario" in the case of crimes like shooting at police, rape with torture, sexual abuse of children, etc.
If you're saying, "If the suspect preemptorily confesses, police don't move onto such a "worst case scenario," that's correct....never happens, but correct. At that point, they could package and ship a "ready-for-conviction" suspect to an always hungry justice system.
I was intensely interrogated at 19 y/o.....is that a "kid"? Fortunately for me, I've always adhered to the code, Say nothing, deny everything and demand proof....a fairly good, though an often difficult standard to abide by. The job of the police is to make that standard as difficult as possible to keep up.
"Here is my logic: JMK wasn't tortured, but agrees John McCain was. A man that was tortured would know what torturing is, and a man that wasn't tortured probably would...." (MGV)
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Your "logic" is fatally flawed, as I was "tortured" by your own definition.
As a young ambitious fellow, I began repossessing cars in my late teens. During that period, the "Exclusionary Rule" was in effect. The Exclusionary Rule barred police from using evidence even in plain sight, without a warrant, OR within the confines of a legitimate or consensual search.
That was a boom for "citizens," as a citizen not acting as an agent of law enforcement, actually had more latitude than the police did. My partner and I did as many "favors for cops as we could in return for their looking the other way on some techicalities with paperwork and other things. That helped Pete and I become top earners. While others ripped two or three cars a week, we grabbed as many as three in a single night!
But that's a seedy business and you do run the risk of being implicated in things you had no part in. By the time I was 24 I'd been grilled numerous times by cops all over the city and some of those were very intensive grillings.
Being interrogated for 91 hours straight with six different cops coming at you with all kinds of questions and trying to twist your words around, while lying to you about what your friend just told us is a very stressful situation.
The same people who call waterboarding torture call sleep deprivation torture....of course, neither of those things are.
The military only waterboards Speical Forces troops.
Even putting a gun to a terror suspect's head and pulling the trigger, shooting just behind his head to get the guy to talk (as one Marine Captain did) is NOT "torture." It IS an "intense interrogation technique," it IS certainly stressful....but one cannot really talk about "absuses" under situations like that...the Captain in question was rightly seeking information on a battlfield to save lives and he rightly did what he felt he had to in order to get that information.
There's really no reason for the squeamish to object to that. They really have no standing to object...on behalf of that detainee.
@ JMK:
You're right I shouldn't have assumed you were never tortured, but that's all I give you. I don't know enough about your personal life to say what you have experienced, and what you haven't. My bad, but only on that point. :)
No, my point is, as grueling an ordeal as such an interrogation is, it's STILL NOT torture.
Sleep deprivation, cold rooms, intimidation, deception are all used by police to break suspects and it works, at least a LOT of the time.
I can say that it doesn't "ellicit confessions from innocent people," because I was innocent and I didn't confess to anything I didn't do...I also didn't change my story from the start, something guilty people do most of the time.
Again, ALL our Special Forces troops are waterboarded during training.
Real torture is things like...oh...setting someone on fire and beating them out with a shovel....taking a hammer and smasshing someone's hand or foot and letting them know that if they don't start giving information, the rest of their hands and feet will be pulverized the same way...gouging out someone's eyes for lying...placing a strong corrosive on someone arms or legs to deliver a vicious chemical burn.
Trust me, you HAVE TO be able to differentiate between relatively mild, "coercive interrogation techniques" and out and out torture.
To put it in perspective, it's the difference between a woman being beaten and raped and a woman getting drunk, having sex with someone she'd rather not have, and then deciding that "it was rape because I wasn't in any state of mind to give consent."
The former is a real victim of rape, while the latter is a victim of SELF abuse.
Just as a woman callin her own poor judgment "rape," makes a mockery of REAL, actual rape, calling things like sleep deprivation, cold rooms and waterboarding "torture," demeans REAL, actual (permanent-injury inflicting) torture....the kind people like McCain and many others went through.
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