Monday, May 11, 2009

Is Marriage A Civil Right?

It occurred to me this weekend as I hosted a debate on gay marriage that I don't believe marriage is a civil right. Let me just say, I believe that gay people should have the same legal and financial rights as any unmarried couple in a de facto relationship. However, I am opposed to the "redefinition" of marriage.

I don't think marriage is a civil right. When I was single and dyyyyying to be married (yes, I hated being single) were my "civil" rights violated by boyfriend because he didn't want to marry me ? I mean can I go back and sue him because he violated my RIGHT to be a married lady? What about the 70% of black women who are single? Can they sue all the brothers who want to be "ballers" for keeping them single....no, I know they can sue liberal white men for not "crossing over" and marrying them. If marriage is a civil rights, then the liberals have a new set of victims -- single people who want to be married but are not, right? Yes, I am aware that this is ridiculous just as ridiculous as gay people saying that marriage is a civil right.

Some heterosexual people who want to be married will never marry for a myriad of reasons and they just have to live with it. So, I believe that rather than redefining marriage, gay people should just live with it. Just like the 70% of black women who want to be married but AREN'T. Since the beginning of time, I am sure they have been gay people and they didn't cause a stink about not being married -- or they just married the opposite sex (yikes!). What's next? Are their descendants going to ask for reparations for civil rights violations?

This is really JUST about the radical left wing agenda to cleanse our society of religious dogma and what they consider to be antiquated traditions like marriage.

90 comments:

uptownsteve said...

Actually it is.

You don't have to be married in a church but you do HAVE to have a license to be married sanctioned by the jurisdiction in which the marriage is performed.

Now, the question for me is how does the government justify denying that right to two consenting adults?

Conservative Black Woman said...

"you do HAVE to have a license to be married sanctioned by the jurisdiction in which the marriage is performed."

UTS~How does that make it a CIVIL right?

uptownsteve said...

A "civil" right is protection from discrimination.

The opposition to gay marriage is coming primarily from religious groups on religious grounds.

Conservative Black Woman said...

UTS~I am simply positing that marriage is not a civil right. Regardless of where the opposition is coming from to say that to be married is a violation of a gay persons civil rights based on discrimination is not true.

One can argue that they have a "right" to be married but it sure isn't a "civil" right.

I don't care what two consenting adults do in their relationship, I think they should have all of the legal/financial benefits that marriage offers even. But if that's the case then heterosexual unmarried couples should also have those benefits. I just have a problem with the re-definition of marriage and I think I would feel the same way regardless of my faith. They should call it something else -- "civil union", "domestic partnership", "legally sanctioned sodomite love", who cares what you call it but don't call it marriage. A marriage arrangement involves a husband and a wife. Not two husbands or two wives.

DJ Black Adam said...

Fascinating.

O.K., let's take this from the top.

1. Marriage as defined by a religion and as defined by a government entity are two entirely different things.

2. The definition of marriage in the United States comes from the British Common Law definition, which came from the Catholic Church definition (for the most part).

3. The definition has been changed from the initial inception in US Law; there are age qualifications, race qualification were removed.

4. The question we have today in is one of LAW not religion, we have a secular government. The question comes down to if two consenting adults of the same gender can be married? Should this be allowed?

Someone give me non-religious but legal and perhaps sociological reasons why or why not.

uptownsteve said...

You prove my point.

You have a problem with gay marriage because it offends your religious sensibilities.

Mormons will tell you that marriage could be one husband and numerous wives.

Conservative Black Woman said...

Ok, maybe I should respond in caps and double spaces.

Yes, I have a problem calling it marriage. But who cares? We all know that marriage WILL be redefined. READ THE TITLE GENTLEMAN!!! Is marriage a CIVIL right. I not debating whether or not they should be married because that's really moot. I am simply saying that to contend that marriage is a civil right is preposterous and if these "brilliant" (and I'm being sarcastic) jurist find that marriage is a civil right then every single person in the US has cause for a class-action law suit for civil rights violations.

Black woman should then bring a class-action law suit against all the black men whom they "shack-up" because these men are "marriage adverse" and therefore violated the rights of the woman for violated the rights of these women by not marrying them. One spouse can sue a spouse filing for divorce for a "civil" rights violation.

I'm not debating how God feels about gay marriage -- for what? Who cares what He thinks anymore. Christians don't even care. I'm just saying let's me honest and call things as they ARE. Gay people want to be married because marriage is awesome, I don't blame them. I wanted desperately to be married when I was single. But what if I no one ever asked me? I would just have been single--but would my civil rights have been violated? ABSOLUTELY NOT! Marriage isn't a civil right! That's all I'm saying.

uptownsteve said...

"Black woman should then bring a class-action law suit against all the black men whom they "shack-up" because these men are "marriage adverse" and therefore violated the rights of the woman for violated the rights of these women by not marrying them. One spouse can sue a spouse filing for divorce for a "civil" rights violation."

First you'd have to prove that the woman demanded marriage before they shacked up, slept together etc...which you damn well very rarely happens.

And of course only black men are guilty of shacking up or having pre-marital or extra marital sex.

This is retarded.

Conservative Black Woman said...

UTS~"And of course only black men are guilty of shacking up or having pre-marital or extra marital sex.

This is retarded."

You are right, I should restate that...ALL WOMEN regardless of race will have cause to bring a class action law suit against marriage adverse men who refused to marry them.

You also write:"First you'd have to prove that the woman demanded marriage before they shacked up, slept together etc...which you damn well very rarely happens."I don't know what you would have to prove I just maintain that marriage isn't a civil right.

Conservative Black Woman said...

It's just that being a black woman who dealt with black men who didn't think marriage was necessary and seeing my single friends who also happen to be black going through the same thing....I guess I'm a bit fixed on black men. Plus, white women don't seem to have trouble getting married....but I have no statistics to prove this before you ask...lol

uptownsteve said...

"When I was single and dyyyyying to be married (yes, I hated being single) were my "civil" rights violated by boyfriend because he didn't want to marry me?"

This classic convoluted rightwing thinking.

Marriage involves two "consenting" adults CBW.

Obviously your boyfriend was not "consenting" to marriage.

So, I assume you exercised your freedom of choice and went and found somebody else, right?

uptownsteve said...

"Plus, white women don't seem to have trouble getting married....but I have no statistics to prove this before you ask...lol"

There's that media perception thing again.

Half the women (white) that I work with are either lesbian or complaining that can't find a good man.

3 of them I know for sure are single mothers who have never been married.

Conservative Black Woman said...

UTS~You actually make a good point with the exception of "This classic convoluted rightwing thinking." I would have come up with this "convoluted" thinking even if I were liberal.

But, I guess I can't get around the two "consenting" adults part.

But what if no one ever "consented".People could sue the "unconsenting" partners for discriminating against because they maybe ugly or fat, because they have halotosis or vaginal warts. The unmarried who desperately wish to be married will have cause to come up with any reason for "discrimination" if the law of the land is that marriage is a "civil" right.

RiPPa said...

It's an issue of CIVIL LIBERTIES. In other words, it's an issue of the gov't stepping in and not legally recognizing or allowing same sex unions. In effect it impedes a persons right to life liberty and the pursuit of hapiness as we are ALL afforded per the constitution.

The struggle of LBGT's is akin to the Civil Right struggle, but people must be corrected on the terminology or the language. It could be deemed a violation of a "civil right" because it seems to be discriminatory or opposed to the Christian Anglo Saxon ethic or definition of marriage. But hey, isn't there supposed to be a separation of church and state?

I mean, what really is the difference between calling it "marriage" or a "civil union"?

It just seems to me that the debate should not be over a name but instead one of principle. In other words, why support them being able to be legally recognized by gov't only if they don't use the term marriage.

Doesn't make sense to me.

Care to explain that one CBW?

I mean lets be real:when one looks at the history of marriage and even in the bible, it was never a ceremony undertaken by a priest or religious figure. It had more to do with the aquisition of wealth than love or what God handed down.

Something that is always missing from these discussions is in fact the history of the subject.

That said, it wasn't until Rome said hey we have to have a priest preside over a ceremony or whatever to make it legitimate. They only did that then so as to prevent people clubbing women in the head caveman style as they were known to do. Being that Christianity was made the official religion of the land, this is how that one came about. It was more political than spiritual.

Now, nobody has to believe anything I say, but I suggest you take the time to look into it and see for yourselves.

DJ Black Adam said...

@CBW:

Marriage IS a civil right, within the context of CIVIL LAW; it was established in the Magna Carta in specifically regarding property ownership and survivorship law regarding estates.

Why do you not know this?

DJ Black Adam said...

@Rippa:

I am in general agreement wit h you, but you wrote: “I mean lets be real:when one looks at the history of marriage and even in the bible, it was never a ceremony undertaken by a priest or religious figure. It had more to do with the aquisition of wealth than love or what God handed down.”

That is a bit overreaching. Marriage as defined by God between Adam and Eve and further restated by Jesus in the Gospels was about procreation and union between two people with God.

Further. The theme of LOVE is present throughout scripture, look at Jacob and Rachel, Abraham and Sarah, Solomon and Makeda, David and Bethsheba, etc., etc.

Conservative Black Woman said...

Rippa~You write"I mean, what really is the difference between calling it "marriage" or a "civil union"?"

Then why not call it that civil union. I submit that I am absolutely biased because of my faith. But I recognize that the many people do not share my religious belief and I don't see the benefit in spouting off my religious position on this matter. But you asked me to explain so I will do so as "secularly" as I can. Changing the definition of marriage would undermine the very nature that gives marriage its unique status in society. It is my fear that forcing marriage to mean all things will force marriage to mean nothing at all. THE PROBLEM with endorsing gay marriage is not that it would allow a handful of people to choose alternative family forms, but that it would require society at large to gut marriage of its central presumptions about family in order to accommodate a few adults' desires. Same-sex marriage would enshrine in law a public judgment that the desire of adults for families of choice outweighs the need of children for mothers and fathers. It would give sanction and approval to the creation of a motherless or fatherless family as a deliberately chosen "good." It would mean the law was neutral as to whether children had mothers and fathers. Motherless and fatherless families would be deemed just fine.People who argue for creating gay marriage do so in the name of high ideals: justice, compassion, fairness. I do not question their sincerity. Nevertheless, to take the already troubled institution most responsible for the protection of children and throw out its most basic presumption in order to further adult interests in sexual freedom would not be high-minded. It is socially irresponsible.

Conservative Black Woman said...

DJBA~You write:"Marriage IS a civil right, within the context of CIVIL LAW; it was established in the Magna Carta in specifically regarding property ownership and survivorship law regarding estates.

Why do you not know this?"
To which I ask how can you not know that it is NOT. Marriage may be a right but it is NOT a civil right and even if I'm wrong then I still say that every gay person already has a right to marry. But everyone also has restrictions on whom they may marry. No one is permitted to marry a child, a close blood relative, a person who is already married, or until recently a person of the same sex. These restrictions apply equally to everyone--there is no discrimination involved.

DJ Black Adam said...

@CBW:

When Blacks and White were not allowed to get married, IT WAS A CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE and IT IS NOW for the SAME REASONS. Restrictions that exist are the issue as they were THEN.

Follow your own logic.

JudyBright said...

"Marriage" between two people of the same sex is nonsensical.

Marriage has been defined since the beginning of time as the joining of one adult male and one adult woman. Any alteration of this has been seen as a perversion (same sex marriage, polygamy, child brides, "shacking up", etc.)

Marriage is the foundation of the family, and the family is the foundation of society. It is the very existence of this structure that allows society to function at all. This is why it is special. Any old friendship, sexual attraction or relationship does not qualify as marriage.

Marriage in a sense is a civil right, meaning it should not be denied because of religion, race, etc. Denying people the right to marry based on an irrelevant factor such as race has rightly been removed from our laws. I maintain that the very nature of marriage is the joining of two adults of the opposite sex, you can't make it a civil right for two people of the same sex to marry.

Just because two adults "consent" to whatever, this does not mean that whatever they've decided to do should be legally recognized. It doesn't mean is should not be recognized either, but that in itself is a useless argument.

And, yes, white women have a hard time with marriage. Perhaps not at the same statistical rate of blacks, but good men are hard to find no matter where you come from.

DJ Black Adam said...

@Judy:

"Marriage has been defined since the beginning of time as the joining of one adult male and one adult woman. Any alteration of this has been seen as a perversion (same sex marriage, polygamy, child brides, "shacking up", etc.)"

Not so Judy, it has was defined by the Torah as One man and One woman and defined by JESUS as such, but everyone was not nor is not Christians nor required to be in the SECULAR society we live in where Freedom of Religion is granted.

Islam allows for one man to have multiple wives, certain Celtic religions allowed for Polymory, so your statement is historically false and predicated on your own Judeo-Christian colored viewpoint.

The question is not if the church should allow same sex marriage, which I can understand someone stating no based on Christian theological principles, the question is should it be allowed under SECULAR CIVIL LAW

Constructive Feedback said...

CBW - let me correct you on a tactical flaw in your argument:

[quote]When I was single and dyyyyying to be married (yes, I hated being single) were my "civil" rights violated by boyfriend because he didn't want to marry me ?[/quote]

There is a distinction between an INDIVIDUAL mate of your choosing to marry you or not versus THE STATE agreeing that you are allowed to be married or not.

With that said I think that the present debate at hand is basically a BATTLE OF ATTRITION.

There are some people who are inclined to focus on "The Will Of Man" and what the present society WANTS to allow for the society VERSUS those who make note that the JUDEO-CHRISTIAN ETHOS has allowed large portions of civilized society around the world to consider certain issues settled and thus the society can move head, building upon this level of certainty.

Let me be clear - AMERICA IS GOING TO ACCEPT SAME SEX MARRIAGE AT SOME POINT.

This is NOT an example of "Enlightened Progression". Instead this is a case of a society that has lost its perspective on the FUNCTION OF HETEROSEXUAL MARRIAGE.

I do not see this as a myopic debate on Gay Marriage. This, instead is the time to up the ENTIRE INSTITUTION OF MARRIAGE ON TRIAL and focus on how with HETEROSEXUAL MARRIAGE having been eroded - these type of alternatives have been allowed to come in during the wayward consciousness.

There is no nation around the world in which Gay Marriage has been adopted while Heterosexual marriage rates have remained strong.

I DO NOT BLAME THE HOMOSEXUALS IN THIS DEBATE.

Clearly the fault resides with the failings of those who are otherwise charged with leading our people by being CONSERVATORS of important institutions upon which our culture is built upon

DJ Black Adam said...

@CF:

"Clearly the fault resides with the failings of those who are otherwise charged with leading our people by being CONSERVATORS of important institutions upon which our culture is built upon"

Get a grip. The world ain't gonna end if Susie marries Becky or Tyrone marries Steve. Good Lord, will you so-calle d CHristians really BEGIN to focus on the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM at SOME point and stop with the dumb stuff.

Show me stats that back up this statement: "There is no nation around the world in which Gay Marriage has been adopted while Heterosexual marriage rates have remained strong."

Constructive Feedback said...

It is so interesting that there is such a large overlap between those who believe that man has EVOLVED from lower order beings

AND

those who can't see that while the male and female genitalia are COMPLEMENTARY - the female womb moistens to accommodate the copulation with a male.

By comparison the primary orifice that is used by male homosexuals has no such complementary relationship because it serves as the end point of the digestive system. (Ironically some will call my anatomically correct assessment as 'hate speech')

Likewise, DESPITE the fact that the lesbian was "born that way as GOD has willed it to be".....all of her REPRODUCTIVE ORGANS are fully functional and both the "fem" and the "butch" are capable of reproducing IF the qualifying reproductive cells from a male was to inseminate her female reproductive cells at the appropriate time.

I beg to ask - WHAT BEYOND THE WILL OF MAN is the evidence for Homosexual behavior proven? Are their any anatomical or physiological basis for this?

DJ Black Adam said...

@CF:

"I beg to ask - WHAT BEYOND THE WILL OF MAN is the evidence for Homosexual behavior proven? Are their any anatomical or physiological basis for this"

Good grief man, now you really are barking up the wrong tree. People both hetero and homosexual have all kinds of un-productive will of man type of sex. Fellatio or Cunnalingous don't cause procreation by themselves.

What is NATURAL or PLEASURABLE to people isn't the issue, the ISSUE IS, is there a sociological or legal reason that same sex marriages should or should not be allowed.

Attorneymom said...

@DJ Blackadam penis and vagina. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit. LOL

Conservative Black Woman said...

DJBA~ There are significant differences between interracial marriage and same-sex marriage. First, removing certain state laws banning interracial marriage did not call for a redefinition of marriage but merely an affirmation of marriage. Traditional marriage is not about equal rights but about establishing norms for sexual relationships within society. They banned discrimination based on race because it is an immutable characteristic that each person has from the moment of conception. And the word “race” appears in the Constitution.
A person who participates in homosexual behavior is different from someone who is born with an immutable characteristic. As many people have pointed out, there are no former African-Americans or former Asian-Americans. But there are hundreds of people who have left homosexuality.

uptownsteve said...

"As many people have pointed out, there are no former African-Americans or former Asian-Americans."

Not even Michael Jackson?

"But there are hundreds of people who have left homosexuality."

There are people who have been forced to resist their homosexuality (which I believe is inherent) because of societal and family pressures.

There are also people who have left heterosexual relationships and become involved in homosexual ones.

I personally know several.

Conservative Black Woman said...

"There are also people who have left heterosexual relationships and become involved in homosexual ones."

Further evidence that "sexual orientation" is not immutable. You can most certainly "mute" it....lol

Conservative Black Woman said...

CF@"There is a distinction between an INDIVIDUAL mate of your choosing to marry you or not versus THE STATE agreeing that you are allowed to be married or not."

Yes, UTS called me on that.

conservativelikenoother said...

Hey Girl,

That was just beautiful. It was not ridiculus at all, it was down right obvious. I believe the first thing we must do is realize that we have in many ways bought into the outrageous reasoning of the left. You are right own, in your presentation. Liberals can come up with the most outlandish concepts and make them sound reasonable. And instead of we, who are Christians, standing up in the defense of truth, we say, okay, that can work. No it can not. Marriage is not a civil right, and sometimes you really have to get a little silly to allow others to see just how ridiculous we have become in our acceptance of just about anything. You go girl. Keep it up.

Conservativelikenoother said...

Conservative Black Woman,

Your naysayers do not see what you are saying because they are looking at this argument from the point of two consenting adults. Well two consenting adults do not write the moral code God does. If someone would show me where in the Bible that God has given us any indication that two men or two women can be married then there would be no more talking about this issue.

It is so sad to see the corruption of the hearts of so many people. First of all it is a sin for two people to engage in sex in any matter outside of what God has instituted. But again, because those who are arguing for same sex marriage is not considering what God has said, you will be conversating with the air. The problem with this whole issue is that these people are clearly saying they reject what God has said about life.

He is the creator of life and He has every right to institute whatever principles He wishes. Man has no right to try and change that. But no matter what gays get from the government they will die with the same issue. It's immoral and sinful in God's eye. Man can redefine anything they want here on earth, but its really irrelevant, because earth is not our final destination. No matter what happens here, on this earth, in this country, in our states, we all will have to die, and the laws of man will not help you at all after that time. The Supreme Court will be of no help to anyone at the Judgement Seat of Christ. Think about it.

Conservative Black Woman said...

Conservativelikenoother~You write"because earth is not our final destination. No matter what happens here, on this earth, in this country, in our states, we all will have to die, and the laws of man will not help you at all after that time. The Supreme Court will be of no help to anyone at the Judgement Seat of Christ."Well you and I know that's the beautiful truth. But unfortunately some Christians either don't believe the word of God or just ignoring in order to "be of the world and not just in it", and of course unbelievers couldn't care less about God. So I was trying to deal with this on secularly. I'm inclined to agree with the comments of Constructive Feedback that this isn't really about gay people and what they do, it's merely a defense of the institution of marriage.

DJ Black Adam said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Conservative Black Woman said...

I meant to say deal with this secularly.

Conservative Black Woman said...

"GOD does for You and I and whomever claims the Bible as their authority, who writes that code for people who DON'T."

I believe in a thing called Natural Law.

DJ Black Adam said...

@Conservativeonlooker:

You wrote: "Well two consenting adults do not write the moral code God does."

GOD does for You and I and whomever claims the Bible as their authority, who writes that code for people who DON'T.

I do understand that Western law has had a strong influence on it by Church Canon Law, however; I posited that the Magna Carta really began the separation from Church Canon law and Secular law, though it was a slow progression. The Magan Carta dealt with land ownership issues, marriage / inheritance issues, criminal law issues etc, in specific for barons and other aristocrats, but it began the movement towards constitutional law that we see in Western countries today.

OF course English Common law evolved from the covenants of that document, as time went on laws applied to all freemen. Of course as we all know, some folks were less “free” than others, and some folks came to the colonies to be more “free”.

Ultimately, we had a revolution and created our OWN law, the Constitution of the United States. Now the values it extols are freedom and liberty for all people, we know however that wasn’t the reality for many people in the United States, however, the founding fathers did not make a document that was not supposed to evolve, in fact, it was to deal with some problems that they left us, (i.e. the inequality of the African slaves, native Americans and women) and new problems as our society grows and changes.

That is why, I posit, the conversation regarding gay rights is a question of LAW. And that is the public discussion that should be had, not morality. Religion deals with the question of morality, however; it must be conceded that that question is subjective, and in a society of many individuals, one can express their subjective morality however we have to govern by a collective law influenced by our subjective morality and ethics.

How would gay “marriage” affect tax law, survivorship laws, dependency laws, etc.? Is there any scientific or sociologic proof that gays marrying would adversely affect non gays? Should gay unions be called marriages, or should there be another construct within civil law to accommodate a same sex union? Where is this discussion? This discussion is clouded by people saying “the Bible says”.

Now, as many of you know or have guessed, I am a very vocal Christian and what the BIBLE SAYS is important to ME, however, I know I’d have a problem if someone was trying to restrict my freedom predicated on what “The Qu’ran, the Vedas, The Enuma Elish, etc.” say., because I do not accept those books as MY authority, simple as that.

Similarly, many people do not accept the authority of the Bible, as they should not be forced to. The Bible has to be accepted by CHOICE, nowhere in scripture does Jesus imply, infer or command that Christians force HIS rules as expressed by scripture on ANYONE.

Within the “Christian Community” (as diverse a community that is) it is expected that Christians debate the issue of same sex marriage, because supposedly everyone in that community should be considering Christ in their choices, but OUTSIDE of the Christian Community, Christians have a right to have their opinion heard, and to vote anyway they choose BUT, I think there are better things to do with our time that actually forwards the ministry of Jesus Christ, protesting same sex marriage seems to do the opposite, but that is another discussion.

It is my opinion, that in the greater diverse community of America, we have to have more than “The Bible says” to use as a predicate for denying someone their equal rights under the constitution. My conclusion, and suggestion, is that the LGBT community, steer this discussion to the LAW, and inform people outside of their community that this is an issue of law, not personal religious or philosophical position. Just saying…

DJ Black Adam said...

@CBW:

I wrote: "GOD does for You and I and whomever claims the Bible as their authority, who writes that code for people who DON'T."

You replied: "I believe in a thing called Natural Law."

Define natural law.

Conservative Black Woman said...

Natural Law:

Natual law: a rule or body of rules of conduct inherent in human nature and essential to or binding upon human society
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Natural law or the law of nature (Latin: lex naturalis) is a theory that posits the existence of a law whose content is set by nature and that therefore has validity everywhere. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_law

general principles of law applicable to all societies; became a fundamental concept of the Roman empire's legal system; related to Stoic ethical theory.
https://www.mountdesales.net/data/files/news/ClassroomLinks/Foundations_Unit__Key_Terms.doc

A theory that has been tested many thousands of times and found always to be true, eg, the law of gravity.
www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/glossaryn.html

set of principles which govern human interactions, which are built into the structure of the universe, as opposed to being imposed by human beings.
www.historycentral.com/Civics/N.html

a statement that expresses generally observed behavior
www.learnchem.net/glossary/n.shtml

God, or nature, or universal reason has given humanity a law from which the norms of all human law must be derived. The role of human beings is to simply deduce natural law correctly. There is very little agreement on the definition of "right reason," however.
www.hfienberg.com/irtheory/intlawdefinitions.html

Naturally occurring principles of existence which regulate the manner in which manifestation occurs. Those parameters of Nature/God which channel material existence in universally consistent ways to facilitate evolution. ...
www.eoni.com/~visionquest/library/glossary.html

Traditionally, the system of rules and principles that should guide human behavior which, despite any laws or other regulations enacted, might be discovered through rational intelligence and morality.
www.krootlaw.com/info-library/legal-dictionary/

Law “which is so necessarily agrees with the nature and state of man, that w/o preserving its maxims, the peace and happiness of humanity can ...
www.swheath.com/doc/polsc215chapter1.htm

This law is based on the natural tendencies of a thing. It can refer both to general moral principles, such as justice, fairness, and respect of other persons, and to specific moral prescriptions. ...
homepage.mac.com/jackbartlett/.Public/FS%20Glossary

DJ Black Adam said...

@CBW:

BTW, I disagree with your whole "immutable" characeristics point. Subjective, reproductive parts are not the issue, biology is one set of issues, this deals with legal questions.

DJ Black Adam said...

@CBW:

"Natural Law" is a very bad standard, it can be argued that it is NATURAL to have 4 wives, or to have two husbands based on patterns we see in nature.

Sorry, that is not a concrete objetcive standard, purely subjective.

Morality AIN'T Natural, the natural state of man is LAWLESSNESS and to be governed by their own Greed and selfishness, or do you disagree with that BIBLICAL truth?

Conservativelikenoother said...

DJ Black Adam,

You asked an exceptional question when you put for the question?

Who writes the laws for everyone else?" God does.

It does not matter if you are a believe or a non-believer your creator is still God. God did not just create believers, He is the creator of all of heaven and earth. Just because you have chosen to reject God's law does not mean He must write a different set of commands for you.

We are all in subjection to the adherence of God's rule, even if some chose to reject it, they will still be judged by it in the end. So even though you and all of the others who support gay-marriage, would like to take God out of the equation, you can not, because God, man and the law are forever intertwined. There is nothing, man can do to separate you are release you from the consequences of reject God's natural laws.

It is the depravity of man that desires him to rebel against God, and that depravity results in rebellion. His rebellion will be the instrument by which He will be judged before God and no man, no man's laws, no man's courts, no man's reasoning, will be able to save you from the sentance that will result from your rejection and rebellion against God and Him alone. You are not disagreeing with me in your assertions, you are disagreeing with God, as I have no authority over your choices and your judgment.

Conservative Black Woman said...

DJBA~You write"Morality AIN'T Natural, the natural state of man is LAWLESSNESS and to be governed by their own Greed and selfishness, or do you disagree with that BIBLICAL truth?"

Good point....except that I maintain that Natural Law is not predicted or given by man. Any law apart from natural law is merely a human construct. You prove my point, that because it is the nature of man to follow after darkeness any abandonment of Natural Law is a step in the direction of tyranny as there is no humane or benevolent alternative to Natural Law. Which is why the Liberal left is hell bent on redefining marriage. The don't care about the human rights of gay people....they care about advancing their godless socialist agenda and are simply using gay people as their useful idiots on this one.

Conservative Black Woman said...

I meant to say Natural Law is not predicated by man...sorry for the typos.

DJ Black Adam said...

@conservaticelikenoother:

"Who writes the laws for everyone else?" God does."

Maybe you are not following along. In God's PERFECT will His rules are to be followed and are by all of nature, excpet the free will that is given to MAN allows mand to operate in God's permissive will.

So sure, from my pespective as a CHRISTIAN "MY" God's law is FINAL, it is my CHOOSEN authority, however, all people do not CHOOSE God's Law, nor do all people agree what that Law is or Which GOD is to be followed.

We do not live in God's Kingdom Yet, therefore in our SECULAR Nation, with freedom of religion, people have very different standards on their moral authority.

By what RIGHT do you feel to imposse YOUR GOD's Law on people who have not choosen it, as you see that GOD allows them NOT TO. Are you second guessing HIM?

DJ Black Adam said...

@CBW:

"Which is why the Liberal left is hell bent on redefining marriage. The don't care about the human rights of gay people....they care about advancing their godless socialist agenda and are simply using gay people as their useful idiots on this one."

Maybe so, maybe not, doesn't cahnge the fact that NATURAL LAW is subjective not concrete. What YOU BELIEVE is Natural LAw may be what I can agree with, but what a Wiccan or a Pagan or a Yorubist or a HINDU or an ATheist believes maybe entirely different. WHO are you to IMPOSSE OUR Definition on people who have not CHOSEN it?

Conservative Black Woman said...

DJBA~"WHO are you to IMPOSSE OUR Definition on people who have not CHOSEN it?"I understand what you are saying but Truth is absolute as it should be. It is not relative. A cat is a cat, not because I say so but because it is so if a Yorubist, Wiccan, or whomever says no a cat is not a cat it's a dog do we then change the definition of cat. There has to be a standard, or moral code that guides a society otherwise anything goes.

Will we be arguing about whether or not plural marriage is a civil right next? I'm sure people who are involved in polygamy can make a case that their "civil" rights are being violated. I mean if marriage between two consenting adults of the same sex is acceptable then wouldn't marriage between 10 consenting adults be that much better?

DJ Black Adam said...

@CBW:

Again, I know what you belive, and what I believe, but in THIS country you and I have a right to be able to practice our faith and believe what we believe, and other people have a right to believe what they believe and completely disagree with us. And honestly, would YOU want to live in a country that impossed Islamic Sharia law on YOU? We live in a country that allows for religious expression, and therefore one cannot subject others to our standard people have to CHOOSE IT.

You wrote: "Will we be arguing about whether or not plural marriage is a civil right next?"

I am sure that will be the next arguement. Some people will predicate this on THEIR gods and religious beliefs which are different from ours.

SO AGAIN, the question becomes one of Law and Sociology, not religious morality.

Conservativelikenoother said...

DJ Black Adam,

Let me say this in a different manner. When a non-believer choses to leave their world of darkness and become a follower of Christ, "person of faith", what must they do? Repent. Repent of what? Of rebellion against God's Word. Which encompasses, the laws, commandments, precepts and principles, God has instituted.

I can not force anyone to make the choice I have made to follow Christ, but I can do nothing to free man, rather in his free will or not, from what God has ordained.

God's law is God's law, of course, people choose to either embrace it or reject it but you know what we can not do? Dissolve it. Hopefully you will understand what I am saying. The only thing that will separate people from God for eternity is their lack of repentence in rebelling against God, and for rejecting the offering that He provided through His Son Jesus.

So again, there is nothing no one can do, to free man from the laws of God. Man is free to reject what God has instituted and they can live in that rejection, but in the end, God's commands will be what will sentence them to their eternity. You can capitolize, put in bold letters, parenthesis, quotes' or whatever you like, but any one who rises to the defense of those who desire to oppose God is not Christian. Because a Christian is a follower and defender of the God's truth.

Conservative Black Woman said...

DJBA~"And honestly, would YOU want to live in a country that impossed Islamic Sharia law on YOU? We live in a country that allows for religious expression, and therefore one cannot subject others to our standard people have to CHOOSE IT."

Of course not and I don't think by standing in opposition to the redefinition of marriage is an imposition of my religion on anyone.

Marriage is not simply a religious institution, nor is it merely a civil institution. Instead, marriage is a natural institution, whose definition as the union of a man and a woman is rooted in the order of nature itself.

Lets be honest here, this debate has not arisen because there's been a large groundswell of public support for same-sex marriage, because there isn't. Christians are accused of being close-minded or bigoted for opposing same-sex marriage, but nothing could be further from the truth at least for most of us. The only reason this debate is taking place at all is because small groups of homosexual activists have gone to court in an attempt to gain from a small band of judges what they know they could never win through the democratic process -- foul, foul, foul.

DJ Black Adam said...

@CBW:

You wrote: "Of course not and I don't think by standing in opposition to the redefinition of marriage is an imposition of my religion on anyone."

Yes you are. Now, you do have a RIGHT to vote and support policy based on your faith or by whatever governs you BUT so does everyone else, believer and non-beleiver. Our religious tradition is not the rule of the land, simple as that. If you want to base your definition of marriage based on our faith, you have that right, but others have the right to have a different opinion in this democratic republic.

When you say you disagree because THE BIBLE tells you so, at that point, you are trying to make your RELIGIOUS opinion LAW. As such, anyone of a different faith without a similar precept of those of other faiths, will oppose you.

And further, in a debate of LAW, your opinion will be at best NOTED and the secular law will contune to be debated.

DJ Black Adam said...
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DJ Black Adam said...
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DJ Black Adam said...

@Conservativelikenoneother:

I am going to look over your ridicules attempts to define who is a Christian and who is not based on my or any Christian’s rejections of the notion that our faith should not be the Law of this Land.

In fact you are the very reason why even though I am a Christian, I would never want any group of humans who are Christians (like YOU) to run the Laws of the Land. YOUR definition is not JESUS’ definition and you could never be in perfect line with HIS will because your prejudices always come out. YOU cannot be TRUSTED to met out God’s Law THAT is why He hasn’t called you to do so.

I believe God will establish His Kingdom in HIS time; it is attitudes like yours that do a disservice to the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, assuming that is, that the Gospel of the Kingdom of God was ever your point to begin with.

You profess Christ, then I suggest you GOVERN YOURSELF BY HIS PRECEPTS, and maybe then perhaps people might see the Light that you should have, as opposed to you trying to control the actions of those who have not yet received the Gospel.

You wrote: "You can capitolize, put in bold letters, parenthesis, quotes' or whatever you like, but any one who rises to the defense of those who desire to oppose God is not Christian. Because a Christian is a follower and defender of the God's truth."

A Christian is one who DEMONSTRATES The Gospel of the Kingdom of GOD. God doesn't need you to defend HIM. It would be best that you draw others to Christ by the CHRISTLIKE NATURE you should be demonstrating, showing the fruit of the Spirit of God, not by trying to define who is a Christian based on who doesn't agree with the political way you attempt to utilize your faith as opposed to the personal way you are called to.

I rise in defense of freedom of religion for EVERYONE because I wouldn’t want anyone, even “Christians” like YOU to impose your definitions of your faith or your “religion” on me.
You have shown, you cannot be trusted.

You can CAPITALIZE, “quote”, Bold or (parenthesis) that yourself.

Conservativelikenoother said...

DJ Black Adam,

DJ Black Adam, tell me how many souls have you converted by your acceptance of same-sex marriage. How many gay men and women have said to you, because you have been so kind to understand that I have the right to make my own lifestyle choice, I will follow Christ and live my life in complete submission to Him.

Nothing that I say, nor you say, will change a person from doing what he or she chooses to do. It is only by the power of the Holy Spirit can a degenerate heart be changed. The World is the LORD and everything it contains. Now is that my words or is that God's Word. I don't want anyone following me. I can not impose anything on anyone. Speaking of Jesus, here is what He has to say in Luke 9:49-50.

"Now John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow with us.”
50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not forbid him, for he who is not against us[a] is on our[b] side.”


Now how can someone say that they are for God and against Him at the same time. For without faith, it is impossible to please God. Faith is not only believing in God but believing also that God is who He says He is. God is the creator of all things, therefore all things are subjected to Him.

I will never go to the defense of those who choose to live against God's law, and oppose someone who is a follower of Christ, because those who are not for Him is against Him. Jesus said it not me.

I am fully aware that I can not subject anyone to follow what I believe, no where in my comments did I even suggest that point of view. But I do believe without apology, that everyone is held in contempt of God's law when they chose to do things opposed to what He has set forth.

The first thing about same-sex marriage is that it condoms homosexual sex, all sex outside of the blue print of God design is wrong and immoral. Although, I can not force anyone to believe that, it does not free them from the consequences of their choices.

I don't won't you to side with me, but at least you should understand the sovereignty of the God you profess to believe in. We have an obligation to the lost to plead with them for the salvation of their souls, not for the freedom of their pleasures. The only person who will be offended by what I say, is the ones who desires to define his or her own path to salvation. I will not surrender my calling for the advancing of the lukewarm, defiled, principles of the left.

What I am saying here, is that I can never separate my self from Christ because now my life is hidden in Him. The only thing I can do is give a reason to the for the stance that I take in my life. Those stances are built on God's Word, and the Lordship of Jesus Christ over all things.

I am full aware that non-believers live in their own world, controlled by the lust of the flesh and in bondage to their desires. I understand that in their depravity of heart they have no ability to understand spiritual things. But that does not constitute Christians just sitting back and allowing their lawlessness nature to have reign over the earth. Either they will impact the world with their lawless and godless policies are those of us who are Christians will impact the world with our Christ-centered and God-fearing policies, which way would you like to see this play out.

You can choose to let them have free reign, but I will not. And what Christ has to offer is more beneficial to them than what the world has to offer. Therefore, I will continue to fight in defense of their agenda.

DJ Black Adam said...

@Conservativelikenoneother:


You asked: “DJ Black Adam, tell me how many souls have you converted by your acceptance of same-sex marriage.”

First off, it’s not about “acceptance of gay marriage”, that isn’t this issue. I personally don’t “accept gay marriage” nor do I have to, since I am not gay and am not trying to marry someone of my own gender.

Second, I don’t “convert” anyone; CONVERSION is the province of the HOLY GHOST. Perhaps you have heard of Him, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of the Most High God? I see you mention Him, how about being LED by HIM and allowing the fruit you should show to be seen?

Third, any seed that I have planted has been by my demonstration of the Gospel of the Kingdom. I know quite a few people I have know who WERE Muslims, Black Hebrew Israelites, Jehovah’s Witnesses and some cases Atheist, both gay and straight who have either gotten saved or came back into the faith by watching Christ in demonstration in my LIFE. Not the superficial change but in seeing TRUE Repentance in my LIFE.

Now tell me how many gays who were going to get married stopped what they were doing because of you beating them over the head with how much what they were doing was wrong in your eyes?

You wrote: “Now how can someone say that they are for God and against Him at the same time.”

I didn’t say I was against God nor am I, being against your political trifle isn’t being against God, even if on the surface it looks like you are lined up with God.

I say on the surface because you are one of those “pick the sin of the month” Christians. All sin is in opposition to God, I condone none of it. HOWEVER, there is a fine line between opposing sinful actions and trying to run other peoples lives.

Our job is to lead people to Christ, the Holy Ghost deals with SIN. Let me give you an example.

There was a lady who was a prostitute that I’d see very other day as I walked down Madison Ave. I and a sister from my church would talk to her from time to time, as a person, never condemning her lifestyle. She eventually visited our church. She got saved. We treated her with kindness and respect and not judgment, because there but for the grace of God….

Like I said; disservice to the Gospel. You all shout about the sin of homosexuality and MANY OF YOU are gay yourselves, or have all manner of ugly wickedness in your lives that gay people look at and wonder about this faith you profess. Therefore, I say to YOU, what the word of the Lord says:

Matthew 7.3-5: “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Now WHATEVER SIN IS IN YOUR LIFE, rather YOU think it’s hidden or not, God sees it. How dare you point a finger at ANYONE when you know what lurks in your OWN HEART.

Therefore again, I say BRING YOURSELF UNDER SUBMISSION to CHRIST JESUS and let your LIGHT shine, show compassion to people while you do so.

That is the second time you questioned my faith, even in disagreement I have not done that to you, I would strongly suggest you discuss the issue as a fellow Christian or cease addressing me period.

Constructive Feedback said...

DJ Black Adam:

In nearly every one of your pieces you seek to swat away anyone who takes a conservatory viewpoint of traditional marriage, the relationship that best approximates what the PHYSIOLOGICAL form of male and female indicate as the norm.

You attempt to put forth the disposition of "PROVE TO ME WHY same sex marriage is not a progressive movement forward".With all due respect, DJBA - I no longer GIVE A DAMN enough to PROVE TO YOU why this is.

Beyond that which is intrinsic there is a millennium's worth of proof that such a framework between man and woman is rational.

I think it is time for YOU TO DEFEND YOUR OWN POSITION. For IT is the RADICAL ONE.

Constructive Feedback said...

[quote]Now, the question for me is how does the government justify denying that right to two consenting adults?[/quote]

The same reason why YOU can't marry your boyfriend along with your present wife along with his wife.

DJ Black Adam said...
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DJ Black Adam said...

@CF:

"I think it is time for YOU TO DEFEND YOUR OWN POSITION. For IT is the RADICAL ONE."

Radical? That this is a matter of LAW and SOCIOLOGICAL REALITY and not a matter of religious doctrine and dogma when dealing with rights within a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC That allows FREEDOM OF RELIGION and that has a SECULAR GOVERNMENT?

Yep, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and 'nem were VERY Radical...

Like I said, I have nothing to "defend" I don't care if you are FOR or AGAINST, it is the inane arguments you are giving that have nothing to do with LAW that I find problematic.
.

Conservativelikenoother said...

DJBlack Adam,

I would like to clarify one thing, that you repeatedly state about my viewpoint. My viewpoint is not a political one, it is Christian one, I have no other viewpoint but that which is built on the Word of God, as I desire to establish a mindset that is like Christ. I will not be conformed to this world no matter what attacks come my way.

Our lights as Christians should not be for illumination alone but for transformation. I have had several gays and lesbian people to whom I have expressed the same sentiments that I have expressed here and they have been impacted in a positive way, seeing that my desire is not to harm them but to help them.

As most on the left, you did not hear anything I said, as I specifically said, that nothing I say, will change anyone, but it is the work of the Holy Spirit, so I guess what I have said to you goes in one ear and out the other.

The most inhumane ungodly thing any person can do is see someone heading over a cliff that can end their lives and push them over. That is what everyone who tells gays and lesbians that they should have the right to marry and be left alone by to do what they choose to do. No, we should be pleading with these people, because giving them comfort in their sin only seals them in their rebellion.

I can not change anyone, I understand that it is the work of the Holy Spirit, but if these people have no voices calling out to them to turn from their ways, as in the days of Jonah and John the Baptist, what will be their fate. I would rather have these people and mad at me for a time but then because of my words to them, open up their hearts to the Holy Spirit and change their lives, than to say nothing and see these people be damned forever.

That is cruelty and I will have nothing to do with it. My views have nothing to do with politics, it has to do with what God desires for those He has created, and although you may not understand this, I am confident that God does. When these people stand before God, they will not be able to turn to me, when it is asked of them, did anyone tell you of the right way? Gays and Lesbians want one thing, their freedom to live the way they desire. They don't want to surrender their lifestyles to follow Christ.

I will not be a part of their own spiritual suicide.

Constructive Feedback said...

[quote]Radical? That this is a matter of LAW and SOCIOLOGICAL REALITY and not a matter of religious doctrine and dogma when dealing with rights within a DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC That allows FREEDOM OF RELIGION and that has a SECULAR GOVERNMENT?[/quote]

DJ Black Adam:

Since THIS is how YOU choose to paint yourself into a corner - could you use this same argument and tell me your view on POLYGAMY?

Why should You, Your Wife, UptownSteve and His Wife BE DISALLOWED to all marry each other UNDER THE LAW in a 4 way marriage?

If you notice I said NOTHING about "Religious Doctrine". Do YOU consider "Judeo-Christian" cultural references as RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE or A CULTURAL REFERENCE?

Even the majority of American Atheists have their cultural norms based on Judeo-Christian references

I like you DJ Black Adam but you appear to have no particular inclination to stand behind the creature that you are making. I believe that it is the RESPONSIBILITY for a society to define and manage a SOCIAL ORDER lest they run astray.

You sit back with your arms folded awaiting for someone to prove to you that if Gay Marriage becomes the national norm that the sky will open up and flames will come raining down.

I DEMAND THAT YOU make reference to the thousands of years of ORDER that is backed by INTRINSIC PHYSIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE of our genders and then YOU PROVE YOUR CASE based on these facts.

INDEED you are pushing a RADICAL notion.

DJ Black Adam said...

@Conservativelikenoother

O.K., I am going to break this down to the bone gristle step – by – step:

You start with: “DJBlack Adam, I would like to clarify one thing, that you repeatedly state about my viewpoint. My viewpoint is not a political one, it is Christian one, I have no other viewpoint but that which is built on the Word of God, as I desire to establish a mindset that is like Christ. I will not be conformed to this world no matter what attacks come my way.”

O.K., lets Talk about a “CHRISTIAN” worldview. I understand that, and I am not saying you should have anything but that, what I am saying is that the only people subject to that are people who are subject to Christ.

You can say you are against gay marriage, fine, but you have to accept the fact that people who aren’t Christians don’t care about the authority of scripture; so what is the point of holding them to a standard they don’t hold. It’s like a Muslim telling you to put down your bacon cheeseburger because the “QURAN” says that you can’t eat pork, what would you say? “Sure, I’ll stop because the QURAN says so” or would you say: “I really don’t care what the QURAN says, I do not submit to its authority”?

Further to my point, if you want to talk about the issue of gay marriage in the public arena, then you would be best to talk about it from a matter of LAW, as for morality, even though you have your standard in Christ, we live in a country where people do not have to share that standard. They have to respect where you are coming from but do not have to agree. My point is why stick on this sin more than anything else? You look like you are on a witch hunt, and how is that conducive to sharing the message of Christ? Let the Holy Ghost ferret out sin, let US who are LED by the SPIRIT, lead people to CHRIST by SHOWING THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT. You do know the BIBLE is very clear that we are to do that?

You go on with: “Our lights as Christians should not be for illumination alone but for transformation. I have had several gays and lesbian people to whom I have expressed the same sentiments that I have expressed here and they have been impacted in a positive way, seeing that my desire is not to harm them but to help them.”

Maybe they have, maybe that’s how you are called. I will say this as surely as the Lord lives, Christians best pay more attention to governing themselves than ANYONE ELSE, because leading comes by EXAMPLE and if you don’t set the example you set people up for failure.

You go on with: “As most on the left, you did not hear anything I said,”

Freeze that “on the left” business, I don’t think I said I was, and I am not, stop assuming and start asking, fact is, I am talking about the issue of LAW not an issue of this stupid left / right – liberal / conservative political ideology. I am saying in a secular nation of LAW, LAW is what needs be discussed, otherwise; you can keep talking about scripture and the world will keep being the world, if you truly have a problem with gay marriage, express it in a language that people can understand.

You go on with: “as I specifically said, that nothing I say, will change anyone, but it is the work of the Holy Spirit, so I guess what I have said to you goes in one ear and out the other.”

No, what you said isn’t relevant in many cases, because you have that “left / right” dialogue going, which what I said was no matter if you are LEFT or RIGHT discuss the legal and sociological aspects, because more than Christians will talk about this, learn to state your case with LEGAL and SOCIOLOGICAL precision, whatever position you take.

You go on with: “The most inhumane ungodly thing any person can do is see someone heading over a cliff that can end their lives and push them over. Again That is what everyone who tells gays and lesbians that they should have the right to marry and be left alone by to do what they choose to do. No, we should be pleading with these people, because giving them comfort in their sin only seals them in their rebellion.”

So you think pleading with someone in sin who does not share your opinion about nor submits to Christian scriptures is the way? If you think so, I disagree. I think SHOWING them CHRIST and letting the Holy Ghost deal with WHATEVER sin is in their life is the way.

You go on with: “I can not change anyone, I understand that it is the work of the Holy Spirit, but if these people have no voices calling out to them to turn from their ways, as in the days of Jonah and John the Baptist, what will be their fate”

Really, I see JOHN saying: Repent of “SIN” not cherry picking the popular and visible sins. I never said don’t say repent, I said don’t think that saying: “The Bible says this or that” or protesting people while holding a KJV in one hand is the way. Some people do need to be rebuked sharply, but in many cases the “rebuke” crowd needs to learn MERCY, COMPASION and LOVE and DEMONSTRATE that BEFORE they start “rebuking”.

“My views have nothing to do with politics…”

Balderdash, you brought up left and right, obviously you are under some silly perception that the right has some sort of insight on the Gospel of the Kingdom of God because they “oppose gay marriage” of course while they get caught in whorehouses and sucking off guys in hotel rooms while they get high on meth. Sorry, God hates hypocrisy more than outright rebellion.

In either case, neither the LEFT or the RIGHT are of GOD both are political systems of MAN and both fall equally short, albeit for different (and in some cases the SAME) reasons.,

You end with “I will not be a part of their own spiritual suicide:”

Who says you have to be, but get real, they have heard what’s what long before they met you. Save yourself the guilt trip. The thing YOU would be best to do, is DEMONSTARTE the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM while you are LED by the SPIRIT. Simple as that, very simple, LIGHT dispels the dark and draws people. You can disagree with me if you will, and we’ll just have to disagree.

DJ Black Adam said...

@CF:

You wrote: "DJ Black Adam: Since THIS is how YOU choose to paint yourself into a corner - could you use this same argument and tell me your view on POLYGAMY?"

No corner for me, save the cookie cutter arguments for the left wing blogs you visit. The subject of POLYGAMY and POLYMORY would and eventually WILL required legal and sociological debate, not: "Because the Bible says not to". Like I told your other "conservative" friend: It’s like a Muslim telling you to put down your bacon cheeseburger because the “QURAN” says that you can’t eat pork, what would you say? “Sure, I’ll stop because the QURAN says so” or would you say: “I really don’t care what the QURAN says, I do not submit to its authority”?

Now, if that Muslim discussed the health risk of pork, how it affects cholesterol, etc., THAT might actually cause you to pay attention.

You write: “If you notice I said NOTHING about "Religious Doctrine". Do YOU consider "Judeo-Christian" cultural references as RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE or A CULTURAL REFERENCE?”

If you mean “Judeo-Christian” as in “western society”, I guess you can go with cultural, a culture supposedly based on Judeo Christian theological concepts and morality. Spare me the histrionics on that, this country was founded on precepts similar to the Roman Empire, you want to start having statues to Venus and Ares as well, public baths? I’m sorry, I do not fall for such a silly presupposition as the so-called Moral authority of Western Culture, the Magna Carta and subsequent English and later American law dealt with marriage as a property rights issue, not a sacred bond.

You wrote: “You sit back with your arms folded awaiting for someone to prove to you that if Gay Marriage becomes the national norm that the sky will open up and flames will come raining down.”

Well, if you can’t prove it, or at least make an argument predicated on something besides your supposed “Judeo-Christian standard” what ever that means to you, then you obviously haven’t thought about the issue seriously, logically, legally, sociologically or intelligently.

Conservativelikenoother said...

DJ Black Adam,

You still never heard a word I said. I am not really concerned with people hearing me or changing or whatever you may think I am after here. You also assume that I am cherry picking sin, wrong again. I believe as the Scripture tells us that all sin is sin. If there were single people advocating the right to have sex whereever they like I would be against them too. However the issue right now is gays and lesbians veyying for the right to marry and abortion. I don't cherry pick, but I can not oppose a sin that is not currently in public square.

You are seeing this from a totally different perspective than I. You are saying these people don't understand Scriptural precedent and they are in the world so leave them alone. What I am saying to you is this. If there were two totally different systems of government for people in the world and for those of us who are Christians, I would not be going over to their world to try and make them live under God's principles. That is not how it is. God created on world and both the believers and the non-believers are living in it. What you are saying is this. The have reign over the entirty of this world. No, Christians have just as much right to desire morality than they have to not.

America is still a country where the majority of people believe in the principles of the Bible. You make the same assumptions as those who want to railroad their agenda into our lives. I don't know how you are coming to your conclusions. For instance, you say, that I would not like it if a Muslim would tell me I could not have a cheeseburger. Well a Muslim could not tell me that, because I am not in the Middle East, I am in America. This is my country and in my country I can have as many cheeseburgers as I desire.

In America, we have what is called a republic, where our representatives are voted in by the people, the people will vote in their politicians based on certain values. It's how it works in this country. If a majority of people vote the same values, then guess what the majority rules.

God rules over the government. He is the one who establishes those in office for His own purpose. I believe that President Obama is in office because God allowed him to be in office. As long as I have the right to vote, I will vote my God-inspired values, based on the rights that God has already given us.

Your arguments about gays and lesbians not being under the same laws of Christians is unnecessary for I already know that unbelievers are not governed by the Kingdom of God. But Christians are allowed to vote and influence government, I can not do anything else but vote what is lawful according to God and not man. You most probably will not get what I am saying, but I just felt I should attempt once more to explain myself. Thanks CBW for giving us the opportunity to discuss this topic. Have a great week everyone.

Constructive Feedback said...

DJ Black Adam:

I will show you the flaws in your argument so that you can come off of them.

[quote]The subject of POLYGAMY and POLYMORY would and eventually WILL required legal and sociological debate, not: "Because the Bible says not to".
[/quote]

You are saying "DEBATE".
I am asking YOU for JUSTIFICATION of your position.

Polygamy HAS BEEN "Debated" in this nation. You ever heard of the Mormons and what they had to do in order to allow the territory known as Utah into a state?

[quote]
Like I told your other "conservative" friend: It’s like a Muslim telling you to put down your bacon cheeseburger because the “QURAN” says that you can’t eat pork, what would you say?[/quote]

AGAIN - My argument as not BIBLICAL. (Don't you think I am 'reading you'?) I spoke about

* The Physiological Evidence of the heterosexual norm

* The need for a society to have RULES that are settled upon so that forward movement can be made

* I noted the Judeo-Christian basis of our culture.

YOU take this reference to "Judeo-Christian" and make it a RELIGIOUS REFERENCE. This is the central flaw in your argument.

In following this logic you become an adjunct member of the ACLU - proactively going after any societal construct that even hints at have a RELIGIOUS founding because you seek to PURGE THESE FROM GOVERNMENT.

* Christmas as a federal holiday
* Sunday as a day of rest. (Let me get my mail on SUNDAY!!!)
* Remove that OFFENSIVE "In God We Trust" from the currency. Replace it with the more universally accepted phrase "B'tch Betta Have My Money"

DJ Black Adam - you are an ABSTRACT THEORIST who apparently takes no ownership in MANAGING and being the CONSERVATOR of the culture around you. While other people's around the world are in a constant state of chaos and terror due to their absence of a sound cultural reference - you find YOUR OWN that has brought us to this point to be contemptible.


At a time when Black people in particular need DIRECTED FOCUS as a means of bringing forth DIRECTED OUTCOMES you and so many other Black Progressive-Fundamentalists error on the side of libertine dogma.

I don't think that you are WRONG (or evil). I think that your views must be ROLLED OVER for the sake of us keeping a societal construct that can endure the ages.

One thing that we BOTH can agree upon: the CULTURAL BABY that you and other Progressive-Fundamentalists birth will be an unclaimed bastard child as the resulting negative consequences and chaos that is created from your ABSTRACT THEORIES render the people as such.

You will then call upon GOVERNMENT to contribute to the people to prevent them from doing harm to themselves.

I see CULTURE as this agent of temperance that you see the GOVERNMENT operating in the space.

The seeds of the tearing apart of this nation will be when the CONSERVATORS OF CULTURE seek to move away from the iron grip of YOUR IDEA of government which is oppressive to them.

Whereas the PROGRESSIVE is an EXPANSIONIST, seeking to control ALL so that they will be under his reign......these CONSERVATORS wills simply seek to YIELD THE BULK OF THE LAND TO YOU and ask that you keep your talons off them where they live so that THEY CAN LIVE FREE in the lifestyle of their own CHOOSING.

(See - didn't mention "God" or "Fire and Brimstone" once.

This is because I UNDERSTAND you DJ Black Adam.)

DJ Black Adam said...

@CF:

“I will show you the flaws in your argument so that you can come off of them.

Oh virtuous Conservative Feed Back…I knew him…CF, adversus solem ne loquitor.

I wrote: “The subject of POLYGAMY and POLYMORY would and eventually WILL required legal and sociological debate, not: "Because the Bible says not to"

You reply: “ You are saying "DEBATE". I am asking YOU for JUSTIFICATION of your position.”

What position, that polygamy and polymory will eventual be argued (yep AGAIN) to be legally recognized unions if homosexual unions become accepted? That is a matter of just basic logic and prediction on pattern, not debate.

You wrote: “Polygamy HAS BEEN "Debated" in this nation. You ever heard of the Mormons and what they had to do in order to allow the territory known as Utah into a state?”

Unlike you it seems, I don’t think that the fact that the issue had been debated in the past means it won’t come up again. It is the way of things you know.

You assert: “YOU take this reference to "Judeo-Christian" and make it a RELIGIOUS REFERENCE. This is the central flaw in your argument.”

At base of so-called “Judeo- Christian culture, is the Judea- Christian religious tradition and precepts, or should be, so I really don’t see your point.

Let me explain it to you a bit more, since you seem not to grasp this concept. Here ya go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo_Christian

“Judeo–Christian (sometimes written as Judaeo–Christian) is a term used broadly to describe a body of concepts and values thought to be held in common by Judaism and Christianity. This tradition is considered, along with classical Greco-Roman civilization, a fundamental basis for Western legal codes and morality.

In particular, the term refers to a moral tradition based on shared religious scriptures, referred to as the Tanakh in Judaism and the Old Testament by Christians, including particularly the Ten Commandments. It implies a continuation of values represented by this religious heritage in the modern Western World”

Notice we are talking about LAW as in reference to the Tanakh in particular the first 10 mitzvahs of the TORAH.

Does that clear that up for you? Hope so.

Its not about culture it is about how we handle matters of LAW. The basise of The Magna Carta was predicated on church canon which was predicated on the Greek Law and the Judeo-Christian legal ethic from the TANAKH.

However, with the Magna Carta and latter English Common Law and later US Law (in that succession) is a secular system which dealt with marriage not as a religious institution but a sociological construct dealing with property rights and survivorship and family legalities.

MY ONLY POINT, is that the silly arguments you made, don’t make good legal arguments. That being said, go and study that “Judeo-Christian” thing and the TANAKH its is partially predicated upon so you can understand the RELIGIOUS undertones. As usual, Eventus stultorum magister.

Conservativelikenoother said...

DJBA,

It appears that what you are saying is that secular law, which is man's law trumps God's law which is universal. If not, you would not be continuing to pursue your dispositions of the generic purpose of the laws man has created. Why is it okay in your progressive world to say that those of the Judeo-Christian faith should have no say over those who are secular, but those who are secular can have full reign over those who are Christian.

That disturbs me, that you who profess to be a Christian, promote secular law as necessary to rule over believers, but spiritual laws is unneccesary to rule over non-believers. Can you explain that please?

DJ Black Adam said...

@Conservativelikenoother

You wrote: "It appears that what you are saying is that secular law, which is man's law trumps God's law which is universal"

Nope, I am not saying that at all, as far as I am concerned GOD's LAW is the LAW I hold myself to. My Father, El Shaddai Elohim Adonai Shekinu, through His son, our Salvation, JESUS, Yeshuayh HaMoshiach Adonai Shekinu.

What I WAS saying is that one has to CHOOSE that standard, God isn't forcing anyone to bow, yet. As of this moment we live in a world where God is allowing for people to CHOOSE His will as we PRAY His will.

I am further saying that since GOD Is not forcing people into His way as revealed to US the saints, WE cannot FORCE it either, sure we can try to influence things, but once we start talking to people outside of our fellowship of faith, we have to accept that they are not compelled to bow down because we have chosen to.

You go one with: "That disturbs me, that you who profess to be a Christian,"

O.K. I'm going to let that one pass...

You continue with: "... promote secular law as necessary to rule over believers, but spiritual laws is unneccesary to rule over non-believers. Can you explain that please?"

We have to deal with secular law, we live in a secular World. We interact with people who are Jews, Muslims, Atheist, Buddhist, etc., we live in a society with them, that is reality. If we come to the table debating what the Bible says, or what the Quran says, or what the Veda's say or what Buddha says, we will get nowhere fast.

We are ruled by God's law first and foremost, I would not fault a CHRISTIAN who held JESUS standard above secular law, as I would do so myself, BUT, it is silly and non-productive to think I can demand someone accept the authority I choose when they have not chosen that authority.

I hope that clears it up for you, maybe it's just I'm a "professing" Christians, so what do I know....

Constructive Feedback said...

In summary, DJ Black Adam - you have no intention in JUSTIFYING YOUR positions on this matter. YOU ONLY are interested in forcing others to JUSTIFY theirs.

Your primary goal is to remove all confinements of religiosity from which people have received their guidance of this all important CONSTRUCT OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR and ASSEMBLY in regards to this issue, REMOVING IT FROM the debate and make this entirely about THE LAW.

Ironically, your bias has you unable to note that EVEN OUR LAWS are derived from the real world understanding that the people who made them BROUGHT WITH THEM....JUST AS the "Judeo-Christian ethic" was forged from the thousands of years human beings lived ABSENT any foundational rules.

Thus far DESPITE the fact that you complained that other people fall back on "Jesus" to form the basis of their arguments - YOU have inserted "Jesus" into my argument more than I have.

When I point to the JUDEO-CHRISTIAN CULTURE - you try to dismiss this as religious dogma and thus you discard it. IF this was called "Egyptian-Irish" Tradition would these RULES THAT GOVERN HUMAN BEHAVIOR be any less contemptible to you?


NOT EVEN my reference to the INTRINSIC information obtainable from the HUMAN GENDER FORM is enough for you to shift to your dependence upon the Federal Court nominee who's OPINION on the issue will be the final ruling - the HUMAN FORM BE DAMNED!!

I figure that none of your THEORIES will go unchallenged (in your mind) until you experience material harm that impacts your own position after having walked down the pathway paved with your intentions)

Anonymous said...

uptownsteve said...

You prove my point.

You have a problem with gay marriage because it offends your religious sensibilities.

Mormons will tell you that marriage could be one husband and numerous wives.

May 11, 2009 11:07 AM

I have wondered why one man cant have multiple wives or a woman cant have multiple husbands. And what about brothers and sisters marrying, or any of the other things that are disallowed in the form of marriage. What about letting anyone marry whomever or whatever they want. What is the problem with that?

Attorneymom said...

Do any of you have a job?? If so, doesn't your job have an internet usage policy? Keep breaching the policy and you will not have a job. To you Christians, stop stealing time from your employer. Your company has hired you to perform a certain job function. I don't think it is blogging and posting comments on CBW's blog.

Have any of you heard of the word brevity?? Your comments should not be as long or longer than the post that you are commenting on.

Do any of you have a life?? I know your wife, husband, concubine or children miss interacting with you. Get a life. Give the computer a break for awhile.

Conservative Black Woman said...

Attorneymom~LOL...why don't you tell how you really feel....

DJ Black Adam said...

@AM:

“Have any of you heard of the word brevity?? Your comments should not be as long or longer than the post that you are commenting on.”

Oh come now Attorney Mom, if it weren’t for the distraction of debating people while at my job, I’d be less productive and probably would have went postal on a few people. CBW’s blog saves lives in the work place. Plus I’m making up for missing your and blkseagpoats blogtalkradio program.

DJ Black Adam said...

@CF

“In summary, DJ Black Adam - you have no intention in JUSTIFYING YOUR positions on this matter.

Nothing to justify, I made a statement of fact, rather you are aware of or accepting of such actuality is not my concern.

Constructive Feedback said...

[quote]Nothing to justify, I made a statement of fact, rather you are aware of or accepting of such actuality is not my concern.[/quote]

DJ Black Adam:

Could you ENUMERATE all of the other ILLEGAL DISCRIMINATION that is going on RIGHT NOW which will one day come and hit us with a lawsuit?

Who would have thought that for thousands of years the culture that this society has agreed upon chose to ILLEGALLY DISCRIMINATE by looking at a penis and a vagina and then make note of the distinction between the human reproduction system and the human digestive system and making INFERENCES from this.Commentator Ben Stein is becoming more brilliant with each passing day - he suggested that it is a WASTE OF TIME to bother with debating on the subject ABSOLUTES IN THE AREA OF CULTURE AND MORALITY when the person believes that humans were not created by INTELLIGENT DESIGN into a specific FUNCTIONAL FORM but instead were morphed from a series of evolutionary accidents over millions of years into our present form.Fear not DJ Black Adam and Steve - one day the male homosexual's anus will begin to lubricate itself in preparation for receiving its COMPLEMENT and thus reduce the lacerations that such penetration yields today and the female's reproductive and mammary glands will cease to function once EVOLUTION trues up their physiological form with their sexual preference. Maxipads for Lesbians once they achieve their EVOLVED STATE!!!

Let us all concentrated and then become ASEXUAL BEINGS over time!!! Then the point will be MOOT!!

(Note: for some of you this above statement will be seen as OFFENSIVE. In truth it cuts to the chase about what we are dealing with.

One side pushes for the WILL OF MAN and makes use of LEGALISMS to justify their claims. Any "religiosity" is a threat because the notion of "Because GOD made us in this form" stifles their attempts at promoting MAN's WILL as the final arbiter. We can only guess what he'll fight for next since everything is NEGOTIABLE.

The side that I stand on has the AUDACITY to make reference to:

* The Human Physiological form to make inferences about our natural order as human beings and mammals.

* A THOUSANDS YEAR HISTORY by which societies have ORDERED themselves in this manner which is under debate, thus avoiding chaos and building up great civilizations (who's legal framework they ironically leverage to DECONSTRUCT this one fundamental construct).

* The fact that this DEBATE is but a SUBSECTION of the broader, more FUNDAMENTAL debate regarding how the LOSS OF CONSCIOUSNESS about the FUNCTION of TRADITIONAL MARRIAGE has done material harm to our society and the crafting of our people within. In the unconscious period that we are devolving toward - same sex marriage is now being considered because TRADITIONAL MARRIAGE has been allowed to lose its honor and sanctity.

(See DJ Black Adam - No "Jesus References" still)

Anonymous said...

What is a civil right? A limit on the government. Something you can do or not do AND no crime will be allowed against you. For example, you have the right to speak freely, but there can be plenty of negative (and legal) consequences for that speech. Govt prefers compulsion and prohibition-- behaviors are mandated or outlawed. Freedom means you can do it if you want to or not do it.

The Bill of Rights are civil rights, limits on govt. Where's marriage? In the 10th Amendment...rights not in this list are reserved to the states or to the people. A civil right is like blight or porn- it's whatever you say it is, in the eye of the beholder. Declare it to be self-evident, and you won't have to argue or discuss it.

The real fear is that legalizing gay marriage will turn everybody gay. That's silly. If we legalize heterosexual marriage, everybody will become straight. If we allow one man to marry one woman, how do we prevent polygamy and bestiality? When we turn the same anti-gay marriage arguments against traditional marriage, we see the monstrous stereotypes soem people have.

What about civil unions? What's wrong with gays having their own family when they grow up and move away from home? How come straights can change their legal next-of-kin through marriage, but nobody else can? Is it because gays are the only minority who need protection from their traditional family?

What's up with that? How does extending equal rights to everyone threaten those who have equal rights already?

conservativelikenoother said...

So I guess Attornymom you are posting from your home computer right? If not, that would make you a hypocrit for getting on someone else case for doing the same thing you are doing? Even if you are working from home, you are still expected to be "working from home". I am always amazed at how people like to call others hypocrits but have not looked in the window of their on hypocrisies. Gay marriage is not a civil right it's a special right. There are gay men and there are gay women. They are still either a man or a woman. Each already have the right to marry, now they want a new right or special right to marry outside that which has already been established.

Liberals are too funny.

Attorneymom said...

@ DJ Black Adam: I rather that you loose a job rather than catch a case. LOL. It is much easier to find another job than get out of jail. LOL. Don't worry about missing the show. Check out the archives

@conservativelikenoother: I actually type this comment on my home computer. Thank you very much. Did I strike a nerve with you??

I agree 100% with your statement about marriage. You win the Sidebar quote of the day. I have to post it on my blog.

Attorneymom said...

Sidebar: @conservativelikenoother, I am a Coporate Attorney. I can't work from home according to my supervisor. I have to go to the plantation 5 days a week. LOL

Attorneymom said...

@conservativelikenoother, you won the Sidebar Quote of the Day award on Character Corner.

http://charactercorner.blogspot.com/2009/05/sidebar.html

conservative brother said...

Gays already have the right to marry. They have the right to marry members of the opposite sex like all Americans. The gay militants and their supporters are trying to blur the issue. What they are really after are "special rights" not "equal rights". If the debate was trying about having the same equal rights as heterosexual couples, they would be more then happy with civil unions. They have managed to sucker people into believe this is a civil rights issue when it isn't. Notice how gays always have to use blacks in order to present their weak cause for why marriage should altered.

lpcyusa said...

How New Jersey Police Beat Me Up For Being a Jewish Woman (My Great Grandafather Was A Rabbi in Russia Too)!

Kridel Lawfirm (Clifton, New Jersey) Bribes Andre Chapman (JIll's Ex-Husband) & Brant Snell for False Statements

Against Her/COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS: WHEREBY MLADIC & KARADZIC TREATED ME WEST MILFORD

DETECTIVES HARRY SHORTWAY & PETER VAN GILST


I ask the New Jersey attorney general to disbar:
Kridel Law Group in Clifton, New Jersey
Contact Information
Phone: 973-470-0800
Fax: 973-472-1909

I originally requested the lawfirm be disbarred from practicing law in the state of New Jersey back when I was attending

William Paterson College in New Jersey prior to 1997.

http://eu4uyuedje.blogspot.com/ (Original Source Website Blog)

It is public information any national news media group in America can prove beyond any doubt, by merely asking for it at

the local Pompton Lakes New Jersey Court Clerk:

1) James A. Kridel Esq., his lawfirm, the West Milford Prosecutor (at that time between 1991-1997), my former landlord

from whom I rented an apartment from, Brant Snell, his brother (joint owner of Snell’s property in Bloomingdale NJ,

along with Harry Shortway and the West Milford Police Force, committed bribery, conspired to commit extortion with

malicious intent against me, and also committed physical acts of terroristic threats against me at the Snell’s residence I

rented.

2) This occurred when the West Milford police responded to a phone call emanating from Brant Snell and arrived outside

my apartment. I had also called them simultaneously because Brant Snell and his brother were threatening me all day

attempting to get me to leave my apartment; neither men filed legal eviction procedings agsainst me.

4) Sgt, Laughlin and co-conspiritors arrived on the scene proceding to cut my phone line at the Snell’s, then proceeding to

threaten me outside my apartment. The police on the scene included red haired Sgt. Laughlin formerly beating my head

against his squad car in West Milford NJ when taking custody of my two children from me giving custody to my ex

husband, Andre Chapman.

All men involved i nthis incident malicously intended endangering my life, reputation and well being; they sucessed. They

also succeeded causing irreparable and permanant emotional harm forever to my two children now adults; my son

currently having a son of his own.

Both men, my ex-husband Andre Chapman along with former landlord Brant Snell admitted their guilt openly in Pompton

Lakes Court before the presiding judge then.

Andre Chapman, my ex husband admitted committing this vile crime against me and my two children to gain continunal

custody rights over my two children at that time, and, Brant Snell for wanting to evict me from my apartment because I

would not have sex with him when I was a student at that time when I rented from him. And, owing to my police report I

filed stating the truth: that he illegally entered my upstairs apartment from his house attempting on numerous occasion to

have sexual relations with me and abuse me against my will through intimidation. Brant Snell also refused to allow me to

lock my upstairs apartment and entered at his own will for several nights.

Harry Shortway told me he strongly suspected Brant Snell and his friend from Vernon NJ having to do with the Vernon

New Jersey rapist/murders that occured at, Waywayanda State Park in West Milford NJ. Harry Shortway asked me to

see what evidence I could get to him against Snell from my apartment leading up to his attic.
I did and it was very suspicous. Snell kept old newspaper clippings of the rapes and murders etc.. Shortway never

arrested either man. SNell’s friend even told me he was up at the Waywaynda Park harrassing women at that time.

The judge fined my ex husband, warning both men and Kridel himself.

The NJ State Attorney General then, completely ignored my complaints afterwhich. I drove to Fort Dix Military Base

complaining to the internal affairs officer who told me that Harry Shortway was affiliated with too powerful an

organization for him to do anyting to help me.

The Kridel lawfirm was allowed to continue practicing their so-called “law” in the state of NJ.

More to Come on them but I was slandered forever and my reputation ruined because my ex husband had told Kridel

lawfirm that “My Wife Jill Starr has a gun and she will use it.”

I never did and it was a lie!
And they wanted to either kill me and/or prove I was too unstable mentally to stand before the Int’l Criminal Court for

Serbia (?) Obviously YES!

I admit often wondering in the post 1999 Kosovo environment when and if:
Bill Clinton will send the NATO to the west milford municipal building for committing agregeous violations of human

rights and genocide against jews and blacks in the State of NJ and in Passaic County in general.

Now that my articles can be proven by court transcripts. I AWAIT MY MONETARY SETTLEMENT! I cannot come fast

enough. When Harry Shortway became andry at me because my ex husband threatened to turn him and his gang into

authorities for dealing cocaine in the Highcrest Lake area of West Milford the West Milford Police all of a sudden

decided they would try me on about 10 traffic tickets. I was forced to come to the municipal building for the case.

My ex husband new about the cocaine dealing in conjunction with te West Milford Police department because he was

living a Treetop Apartments during the time my family moved there when I met my ex husband back when I attended

Walter T Bergen School in Bloomingdale NJ as a young 13 year old girl. My husband was into drugs and bought cocaine

from Shanahan a former West Milford Police Officer involved and thrown off the force for cocaine dealing. Apparently

my ex husband told me that Harry Shortway was invovled in dealing drugs to my ex husband and his friends back at

Treetop during those days.

Jill Starr members.fortunecity... Feb 19 2009
bloomingdale, United States


Harry Shortway originally became angry with me because my ex husband threatened to turn him and his associates into

internal affairs Mr. Sorchinski (alias Zoro in the West Milford Police Force of Internal Affairs up there then) for dealing

cocaine in the Highcrest Lake area of West Milford.

Thereafter, the West Milford Police all of a sudden decided they would try me on about 10 traffic tickets. I was homeless

then because they threw me out of my home, gave custody rights of my two children and assisted my ex husband in

throwing ALL my property and clothing in the local garbage; even though the Paterson Domestic Violence Courts at that

time gave me a court order to have the West Milford Police assist me and help me get my property out of the house I had

lived in at Highcrest saftly. In any event, they (West Milford Courts) forced to come to the municipal building for the case.

My ex husband new about the cocaine dealing in conjunction with the West Milford Police department because he was

living a Treetop Apartments during the time my family moved there when I met my ex husband back, and, when I attended

Walter T Bergen School in Bloomingdale NJ as a young 13 year old girl. My husband was into drugs and bought cocaine

from Shanahan a former West Milford Police Officer involved and thrown off the police force for cocaine dealing at

Treetop Apartments.

My ex husband, ANdre Chapman told me he threatened Harry Shortway because he was jealous I thought he was ”cute”

and Andre Chapman told me that Harry Shortway was involved in dealing drugs to my ex husband and his friends back at

Treetop during those days when I was a yong girl.

The West Milford Prosecutor also used a court protected document i.e., my Passaic County Diagnostic Exam in the

traffic violations case against me which he later dropped at once when I pointed out it made him in ”Contempt of Cort’ in

the case for handling it and even for looking at that document which was only allowed for viewing by either myself or my

attorneys in my custody case.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS: WHEREBY MLADIC & KARADZIC TREATED ME WEST MILFORD DETECTIVES

HARRY SHORTWAY & PETER VAN GILST

Wednesday, April 15, 2009
Comparing Whereby Karadzic & Mladic Treate Me W/NJ Deteecties Harry SHarry Shortway, Pete Van Gilst,

Sorchinski Could Face Murder Charges Sources Sa
Thursday, April 2, 2009
Harry Shortway, Pete Van Gilst, Sorchinski Could Face Murder Charges Sources Say>>

The Instablog.Com website administration today stated on my blog account, I am no longer authorized to submit articles

for some unknown reason. I surmise the reason may be I’m submitting too many articles at once. Hence, I opened an

additional account just so I could post this follow up comment on my previously written article entitled, Comparing West

Milford Detectives in New Jersey to the Treatment Received By Karadzic and Mladic in Serbia.

Please read it.

It is an extremely important legal case I am submitting to the Hague Court in the Netherlands as an individual

complainant from here in the United States of America. I hope it will set an international precedent even in America

people are abused by government officers.

I am fully convinced after almost a decade of asking the legal governmental authorities at local, state and federal levels

here in the United States of America to arrest and try Detective Harry Shortway and his Sgt. Laughlin in a court of law in

America for attempting to murder me and moreover physically and emotionally torturing me and my family in 1990/1991,

it is clear,

the United States of America is either unwilling OR incapable of taking the bold moral measures to arrest Harry

Shortway and associates giving him a fair trial here in America similarly to what American diplomats such as Hillary

Clinton accuse Serbia of not submitting General Mladic to the Hague for trial.

Hypocritical America, don’t you agree (?)

This makes a mockery of genuine ideals insofar as human rights in America while manifesting extremely gross violations

of human rights against me as well as attempted genocide committed against me by Harry Shortway (on account of

allegedly wanting to kill me because I derive from a Jewish family background and was then married to a black on

account of his fascist affiliations with the National Alliance KKK group). These crimes against me occurred only thirty

minutes away from the United Nations Security Council in Manhattan; I, Jill Starr am an American citizen and previously

wrote the UN about this in the early 1990s.

All together now let’s remember the crime of ‘genocide’ in and of itself, can be the attempt to kill one OR thousands of

members of any ethnic, religious group.

More to come on this story.
-

I AM OFFERING A FINANCIAL REWARD FOR ANY AND ALL INFORMATION LEADING TO CAPTURE AND

ARREST OF DETECTIVE HARRY SHORTWAY FORMER WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY DETECTIVE AND

HIS SGT. LAUGHLIN AND ASSOCIATES:

1) SGT. LAUGHLIN (IS A TALL RED HAIRED MAN OVER 6 FEET IN HEIGHT AND SLIM BUILD- HE IS NOT

VERY INTELLIGENT).

SGT. LAUGHLIN WAS LAST SEEN BY ME IN BACK OF RYAN MACHINE COMPANY IN THE DRIVEWAY OF

THE HOUSE I USED TO RENT WITH MY FAMILY OFF MACOPIN ROAD IN WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY

YANKING ME BY MY LONG HAIR AND BANGING MY HEAD AGAINST HIS POLICE CAR WHILE HIS ROCKIE

PARTNER COP WATCHED. THEN HE SHOVED ME INTO HIS POLICE CAR IN HANDCUFFING WHICH HE

CONTINUED TIGHTENING AGAINST MY WRISTS TILL THEY BEGAN BLEEDING IN PAIN WHILE I CRIED

OUT IN AGONY AND TEARS FOR HIM TO STOP; HE WOULD NOT STOP AND CONTINUE LAUGHING WHILE

HE DROVE ME TO UP TO SEE SHORTWAY WHO WAS WAITING FOR ME AT THE WEST MILFORD POLICE

STATION.

I AM OFFERING A FINANCIAL REWARD FOR ANY AND ALL INFORMATION LEADING TO CAPTURE AND

ARREST OF DETECTIVE HARRY SHORTWAY FORMER WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY DETECTIVE AND

HIS SGT. LAUGHLIN AND ASSOCIATES:

1) SGT. LAUGHLIN (IS A TALL RED WAVY HAIRED MAN OVER 6 FEET IN HEIGHT AND SLIM BUILD- HE IS

NOT VERY INTELLIGENT).

SGT. LAUGHLIN WAS LAST SEEN BY ME IN BACK OF RYAN MACHINE COMPANY IN THE DRIVEWAY OF

THE HOUSE I USED TO RENT IN HIGHCREST LAKE COMMUNITY WITH MY FAMILY OFF MACOPIN ROAD

IN WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY YANKING ME BY MY LONG HAIR AND BANGING MY HEAD AGAINST HIS

POLICE CAR ABOUT TEN TIMES NONSTOP WHILE HIS ROCKIE PARTNER COP STOOD THERE DOING

NOTHING MERELY WATCHING ME BE ABUSED.

THEN SGT LAUGHLIN SHOVED ME INTO HIS POLICE CAR IN HANDCUFFS WHICH HE CONTINUED

TIGHTENING AGAINST MY WRISTS TILL THEY BEGAN BLEEDING IN PAIN WHILE I CRIED OUT IN AGONY

AND TEARS FOR HIM TO STOP; HE WOULD NOT STOP AND CONTINUED LAUGHING WHILE HE DROVE

ME TO UP TO SEE SHORTWAY WHO WAS WAITING FOR ME AT THE WEST MILFORD POLICE STATION.

THIS FINANCIAL REWARD IS CONTINGENT UPON ANY FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT I MAY RECEIVE IN THE

FUTURE FROM THE THREE GRADUATE SCHOOLS FORMERLY DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ME IN THE

MOST VILE MANNERS IN THE NJ AND NYC AREAS.

I WILL OFFER SPLIT EQUITABLE FINANCIAL REWARD OF 50% OF ANY MONEY I RECEIVE TO THOSE

AGENCIES AND/OR INDIVIDUALS COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO HELP BRING THESE RUTHLESS

DETECTIVES AND THEIR SGT’S TO JUSTICE AND JAIL.

AND, IF AMERICAN CANNOT FIND THE MORAL AND POLITICAL WILLPOWER TO BRING THEM TO

JUSTICE AND TRIAL HERE IN THE USA, I WANT THEM EXTRADITED TO THE HAGUE ICC COURT.

In friendship and diplomacy my reputation for honesty proceeds me so all interested persons and/or parties in helping me

bring Shortway and his Sgt Laughlin from West Milford NJ to trial at teh Hague,

can rest assured I will uphold my end of the reward agreement shall I receive financial settlement myself from the

aforementioned colleges in the near future.

lpcyusa said...

I Felt many Times Safer With General Ratko Mladic Than I Do Sitting Alone In My Apartment In Bloomingdale, NJ USA

As an after thought on my book. I doubt very much that I met Mr. Mladic on a ”baor restaurant.” There was no one else

present having dinner.

It as more like a living and/or conference setting and seems to me now to be more like a private yacht. I have never really

been on one before but it reminded me of photos I’ve seen of the interior of Onassis’s yachts.

I felt many times more safer sitting with General Ratko Mladic Than I Do Sitting At Home In My Apartment In

Bloomingdale, NJ US!

Although it may sound foreign to many here in America, I would feel safer having the Serbian Army as my bodyguards

here at my house in Bloomingdale, NJ where I rent a small apartment to protect me from the local townships’ corrupt law

enforcement officials and if I had teh finances I hire a few.

Jill Starr
I grew up traveling the world with my parents at age 7. I remember being on the island of Java in 1970/71 going

swimming in the pool at Hotel InterContinentel surrounded by armed soldiers; and, and flying over Vietnam and my father

pointing out "look Jill we are flying over Vietnam now..." with my Mom. The interesting thing was no commercial airlines

flew over Vietnam unti. about one decade ago and certainly not in the 1970s. Sports: Water polo, Soccer Recreation:

Partying, Travel Tags: reading, travel, children, swimming, music, college, writing, environment, new jersey, philosophy,

culture, sociology, new york, ecology, china, peace, theatre, america, social justice, theology, war, human rights,

endangered species, indonesia, russia, romania, political science, united nations, ideology, news media, war crimes,

fairness, preventive diplomacy, crimes against humanity, serbia, kosovo, montenegro, edcuation, west milford,

bloomingdale, mediation techniques James Bond type films.

View my complete profile
http://mladickaradzicshortwaystudy.blogspot.com/2009/04/comparing-whereby-karadzic-mladic.html
11:48 AM 5/12/2009

COMPARE HOW MLADIC AND KARADZIC TREATED ME WITH THAT OF AMERICAN DETECTIVES IN

WEST MILFORD NJ->

Neither Mladli nor Karadzic touched me in any manner maliciously UNLIKE the detectives in West Milford NJ in

America who banged my head against a police car over ten times and laughed at me while they handcuffed me so tight my

wrists bled in the squad car. They were serving me with the ’restraining order’ my ex husband filed against me to gain

custody of my two children in early 1990/91.

paid large sums of money back then to retain an attorney in New Jersey to sue the West Milford detectives. Sgt. Laughlin

the tall red haired police officer over 6 feet tall was the one who banged my head against his cop car in my driveway while

a rookie cop watched! No attorney took my case saying I was up against too powerful organizations. I ever went to Fort

Dix NJ and told the head of the police there and he ignored me as well.

Inversely, the alleged most ruthles men and war criminals in the world since Hitler TREATED ME WITH HUMAN

DIGNITY AND RESPECT ACTING LIKE GENTLEMAN AT ALL TIMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I await everyone’s comment!

The crime against me was racially based I was told later since many of the police in West Milford belong to the KKK

connected group called THE NATIONAL ALLIANCE (I was married to a black man and my family was Jewish) even

though I am Russian Orthodox Christian). I traced the National Alliance to the Southern States and read their Nazi

manifesto to kill all ”Jews, Russians and Black.” Their signs used to be explicitly posted in the Hewitt West Milford Post

Office

So I grabbed one and called them and discovered their true genocidal agenda. I am a war crimes investigator and right

here only 30 minutes from the United Nations in West Milford NJ we have genocide occurring and no one listens to me!
The detectives involved were and not limited to: Sgt. Laughlin, Detective Harry Shortway and his close partner Peter Van

Gilst and the former internal affairs investigator Mr. Sorchinsky aka ZORO. The National Alliance manifesto clearly

indicates that persons ought use their powerful positions all over New Jersey, whether they be police, doctors and/or

judges to rid the world of Russians,. Jews and Blacks

One of the many reasons for which I am on permanent disability is that I felt coerced by the police in Passaic County that

unless I said I was ”insane” I may be shot and killed because I’d be able to testify against them! Detective Shortway set

me up to be murdered once already by placing an ad in the localO paper and saying he was leaving on vacation etc.etc... it

is too complicated to go into here and now. I was looking for a new place to rent with my family at the time. On a voice

changing machine (as my children can attest to) he gave me directions to a house to look at towards the end of all this

ordeal with him. Later I found out the directions where I told my family I was going to look at th rental were over 20 miles

in another direction and no one wold have ever found me again. This is my take on this and I am usually correct. Sorry for

my spelling but this is extremely dificult for me to remember (agonizingly painful emotionally)

I am scared to death now not of anything emanating from my writing about Mladic, but of my present close proximity

where I reside nearby to West Milford and its associated Detectives. I never feared being hurt because I am writing a

book based on my experiences in Serbia and Montenegro. Yes I am fearful of retaliation of SHORTWAY AND HIS

CRONIES !

================================================================================
UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychiatric Facility in Wykoff NJ USA

(Ramapo Ridge Hospital) As SEcret Military Tribunal and Torture Facilty

Monday, April 20, 2009
Recovery Leads to Near Death Experience at Ramapo Ridge Psychiatiric Hospital in Wykoff,
New Jersey (U.S.A.) A few years ago during an incident becoming seemingly common place in my life happening so often

now. The local Bloomingdale New Jersey Police Department again had forced me
physically into a psychiatric Hospital again; this time Chilton Hospital in Paquannock, NJ,
USA. I was in the emergency room once again, for seemingly no reason whatsoever after making
another attempt reporting an incident for investigation to the local Bloomingdale, NJ Police
mentioning issues effecting the entire world. Anyway, this time Chilton Hospital forced me into a place called Ramapo

Ridge Psychiatric Hospital. They had me on medications dropping my blood pressure to 82 over 67 (i almost died). They

continued to force me to take this medication for at least three weeks in which time they refused to release me. I was not

released for almost one month after arguing with the staff that there was nothing at all wrong with me. Each day my two

regular psychiatrists called Ramapo Ridge Mental Hospital trying to get released. They refused and Ramapo Ridge told

me I had to stand before a judge and court located in the bottom floor of the building to be released.After three weeks I

had to go downstairs and I actually stood before what seemed to be a “war crimes tribunal,” in lower level of the Ramapo

Ridge . I stood before a judge wearing a regular judicial long black robe and a line of attorney’s beseeching my release

from the hospital.
I dont know to this day what this experience was about; i dread to tell you. Secret types of
military tribunals right here operating in the USA by the CIA (?) Inquiring minds demand
answers.

UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychiatric Hospital Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff,
New Jersey (U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tribunal and Interrogation Facility)A few years ago
during an incident becoming seemingly common place in my life happening so often now. The
local Bloomingdale New Jersey Police Department again had forced me physically into a psychiatric Hospital again; this

time Chilton Hospital in Paquannock, NJ, USA. I was in the emergency room once again, for seemingly no reason

whatsoever after making another attempt reporting an incident for investigation to the local Bloomingdale, NJ Police

mentioning issues effecting the entire world. Anyway, this time Chilton Hospital forced me into a place called Ramapo

Ridge Psychiatric Hospital. They had me on medications dropping my blood pressure to 82 over 67 (i almost died). They

continued to force me to take this medication for at least three weeks in which time they refused to release me. I was not

released for almost one month after arguing with the staff that there was nothing at all wrong with me. Each day my two

regular psychiatrists called Ramapo Ridge Mental
Hospital trying to get released. They refused and Ramapo Ridge told me I had to stand before
a judge and court located in the bottom floor of the building to be released. After three weeks I had to go downstairs and I

actually stood before what seemed to be a “war crimes tribunal,” in lower level of the Ramapo Ridge . I stood before a

judge wearing a regular judicial long black robe and a line of attorney’s beseeching my release from the hospital. I dont

know to this day what this experience was about; i dread to tell you. Secret types of military tribunals right here

operating in the USA by the CIA (?) Inquiring minds demand answers. UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used

Psychaitric Hosptial Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff, New Jersey (U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tibunal and Interrogation Facility)

I will also add that now I am scared beyond belief to go to the emergency room at Chilton Hospital in Pomtpon Plains

NJ. WHY (?) Ever since the Bloomingdale, NJ police illegally forced me to continually go into the psychiatric ward at

Chilton against my and my doctors will whenever I make a local police report when I feel my life is endangered, when I

am physically ill with the flu or something, I notice when I go to the Chilton Hospital emergency room, instead of taking

my injury seriously, the doctors just ask me if I want to go into the psychiatric section upstairs, strongly suggesting I am

being ”paranoid.” Instead of offering me good medical care.

I can never get nondiscriminatory emergency medical care at Chilton hospital without the
hospital itself insisting that I am just being ”paranoid.” And they always call my psychiatrist
whenever I go to their hospital even for the flu! This has led to Arnold Stark my former professor advising me to always

go to St Joseph’s Hospital in Wayne NJ instead which I do n ow.
I will also add that now I am scared beyond belief to go to the emergency room at Chilton Hospital in Pomtpon Plains

NJ. WHY (?) Ever since the Bloomingdale, NJ police illegally forced me to continually go into the psychiatric ward at

Chilton against my and my doctors will whenever I make a local police report when I feel my life is endangered, when I

am physically ill with the flu or something, I notice when I go to the Chilton Hospital emergency room, instead of taking

my injury seriously, the doctors just ask me if I want to go into the psychiatric section upstairs, strongly suggesting I am

being ”paranoid.” Instead of offering me good medical care.

I can never get nondiscriminatory emergency medical care at Chilton hospital without the
hospital itself insisting that I am just being ”paranoid.” And they always call my psychiatrist
whenever I go to their hospital even for the flu! This has led to Arnold Stark my former professor advising me to always

go to St Joseph’s Hospital in Wayne NJ instead which I do n ow. Jill Starr
I grew up traveling the world with my parents at age 7. I remember being on the island of
Java in 1970/71 going swimming in the pool at Hotel InterContinentel surrounded by armed
soldiers; and, and flying over Vietnam and my father pointing out "look Jill we are flying over
Vietnam now..." with my Mom. The interesting thing was no commercial airlines flew over
Vietnam unti. about one decade ago and certainly not in the 1970s. Sports: Water polo, Soccer
Recreation: Partying, Travel Tags: reading, travel, children, swimming, music, college,
writing, environment, new jersey, philosophy, culture, sociology, new york, ecology, china,
peace, theatre, america, social justice, theology, war, human rights, endangered species,
indonesia, russia, romania, political science, united nations, ideology, news media, war crimes,
fairness, preventive diplomacy, crimes against humanity, serbia, kosovo, montenegro,
edcuation, west milford, bloomingdale, mediation techniques James Bond type films.
View my complete profile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me A

Thursday, April 23, 2009
Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me At Ramapo Ridge Facility
Jill Starr , bloomingdale: Apr 5 2009
United States :

Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me At Ramapo Ridge Facility
This is the story while I was illegally detained at Ramapo Ridge facility in Wykoff NJ USA, a
man comes in through the front door wearing a one piece janitor outfit and starts mopping for
about 10 minutes . He looked like one of my father’s former associates from way back in the day (I won’t say who now).

Anyway, he walked out of the men’s room and then tosses his mop aside and unzips his janitorial outfit revealing a pin

striped sharp blue suit, grabs his briefcase behind the front
desks and whisks himself out the front door saying goodbye to me. Posted by lpcyusa at 10:48 AM 0 comments Evidence

United States Tortured Its Own Citizen


When I refused to take the continuous lines of medications at Ramapo Ridge facility I knew that
I was extemely allergic to they told me I needed an ”Attitude adjustment.”
This is when they took me into a solitary confinement room and put my arms and legs in straps
on a horrible bed. The injected me with the medication they told me I was ”going to get one way or another.” For about 4

-6 hours (it is difficult to kow I was drugged) the facility would not allow me a
bedpan or to get up to the bathroom and told me to crap and piss all over msyelf and I could
take a shower when my ”attitude is right.” AFter I calmed down because I had no recourse, I was allowed to take a

shower they bossed me around saying ”Go shower now Jill!”

I was absolutely tortured right there in NJ USA Ramapo Ridge Sends Me Back To Chilton Hospital After My First

Ambulatory Arrival And Drug Urine Test Fails Ramapo Ridge Sends Me Back To Chilton Hospital After My First

Ambulatory Arrival And Drug Urine Test Fails
The first time Chilton sent me via ambulance to the Ramapo Ridge facility, the ambulance from
Chilton dropped me off. The Ramapo Ridge facility gave me a urine test as soon as I arrived at
the detention facility in Wykoff NJ USA. The test was positive for a result because Ramapo Ridge sent me all the way

back to Chilton by way of another ambulance at 3Am in the morning.
The Head Nurse told me “Jill you have to go back to Chilton Hospital because we have to wait
for your urine test to clear from something or the other...) to the best of my memory which is
VERY good as we know is a proven fact. I was sent back to Chilton Hospital from Ramapo Ridge at about 3 am in the

morning until a urine test that Chilton Hospital in Pompton Plains NJ said that I was able to be transported back to

Ramapo Ridge. It must have been close to 4-5:30 am almost dawn when this occurred to me.I will continue to release

proof and details until the United States of America grants both Serbia and myself immediate monetary settlements for

our troubles.
Serbia and Bonsia and Montenegro are due moneys because of illegal bombing of their countries and I am owed a sizable

financial settlement as stated. I ask President Obama to immediately work out an out of international court settlement at

once before the news reports it right with MY TRANSLATION!

When the second time I arrived at Ramapo Ridge about 4 am in the morning after complaining that in my own views

there was no reason to send me back and forth between hospitals in the middle of the night, the Ramapo Ridge facility

told me to wait ina room with magazines and puzzles in it. I worked on a large jigsaw puzzle and heard the Head Nurse

say to a man that looked like a CIA operative ”ENTER THIS TIME IN HER LOG.” Even writing about this experience

in this blog to expose it causes me panics attacks I will have for the rest of my life.
When I refused to take the continuous lines of medications at Ramapo Ridge facility I knew that
I was extemely allergic to they told me I needed an ”Attitude adjustment.”
This is when they took me into a solitary confinement room and put my arms and legs in straps
on a horrible bed.


The injected me with the medication they told me I was ”going to get one way or another.”
For about 4-6 hours (it is difficult to kow I was drugged) the facility would not allow me a
bedpan or to get up to the bathroom and told me to crap and piss all over msyelf and I could
take a shower when my ”attitude is right.” AFter I calmed down because I had no recourse, I was allowed to take a

shower they bossed me around saying ”Go shower now Jill!”
I was absolutely tortured right there in NJ USA http://lpcyu.instablogs.com/feed
And again, both Ramapo Ridge and Chilton in Pompton Plains NJ both allowed former doctor
Charlotte Piuck, my former psychiatrist whose license taken away by the New Jersey branch of
American Medical Association, consult with Ramapo Ridge and Chilton doctors whom were

licensed and they agrered with her behind the meddical desk to continue giuving me
medications they all knew I had long hostories of being allergic to.
When I did get allergic reactions in Chilton and Ramapo Ridge BOTH FACILITIES
REFUSED TO GIVE ME BENEDRYL TO COUNTER ACT TE ALLERGIC REACTION
WHICH COULD HAV KILLED ME


ill Starr, Director of the UN/NGO The Law Projects Center Manhattan Area Office Confirms
She Was Illegally Detained by US Intlligence Officials at Ramapo Ridge Facility in Wykoff NJ
(Secret US Military Tribunal and Interrogation Center) Where She Was Placed In Straight
Jacket and Gave Me Injections Ramapo Ridge facility also put me in a straight jacket and chained me to the bed in their

facility and gave me injections for hours!eing Drugged and Questioned At Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff In addition to being

dragged off and illegally detained and imprisoned for over 2.5 weeks in Ramapo Ridge Psychiatric Facility in Wykoff NJ

by Bloomingdale, NJ Police Officials hoping to collect on information they are trying to get out of me ; they hope sharing

in that pot of million dollar Euros on the Mladic & Karadzic arrest which is why they have abused me so
here locally in NJ USA, the facility at Ramapo Ridge came fully equipped with judges in long black robes and an entire

courtroom with a row of high powered attorneys in high powered suits, for defendants for persons like myself demanding

to be released when their regular doctors continued calling the facility to have the released; and, Ramapo Ridge refused.
Ramapo Ridge also drugged me on medications I had a long history of being allergic to
against my will and kept keeping logs all day and night about “what Jill was rambling about
now,” I remember in my drugged state rambling about Osama bin Laden and some others things
they were trying to force out of me about war crimes in Serbia and Bosnia. I almost died from
the low blood pressures these drugs produced in me and I have Arnold Stark with me when
they took my blood pressure and it was only like 62/90 (!) Arnold said “She could die!” to the
facility doctors but they only forced me to take more medicines.
PRSIDENT OBAMA HAS DONE NOTHING FOR CHANGE! HE LIES AND COVERS THIS
UP AND I STILL AWAIT SOME FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT FOR THIS TORTURE IN NJ
USA. ONLY 30 MINUTES FROM THE UNITED NATIONS IN NYC
Posted by lpcyusa at 7:54 AM 0 comments
This is why I, Jill Starr, Felt So Safe on a Tivat Montenegro Car Ferry Surrounded By At Least
20 Armed Serbian Soldiers....Jill Starr Accuses Local Police Of Illegally Serving Search Warrant too (!) Bloomingdale

Police arrested me under the pretense for “drugs,” but they searched illegally
way outside the legal limits of their “search warrant” signed by local Judge Cluff (also serving
in West Milford NJ and he knows Harry Shortway)...The search warrant itself never manifested
any particular place in my home where I had drugs and/or not explicit what types of any drugs
if any the local Bloomingdale NJ Police were looking for in my house and at what location in
my house itself. It was like I was served with a “Patriot Act Warrant” ANYTHING WAS LEGAL FOR THEM TO DO

TO ME! THE LOCAL DETECTIVE SEARCHED EVERYTHING THREATENING TO PUT ME IN OB/GYN

STIRRUPS AND LOOK UP MY PRIVATES IF THEY COULD NOT FIND WHAT THEY WERE SEARCHING FOR

IN MY HOUSE AND BODY. THEY STRIP SEARCHED ME WITH A FEMALE PATRON TOO IN TOWNHALL!

I DEMAND IMMEDIATE ARRESTS OF CERTAIN LOCAL BLOOMINGDALE POLICE
INVOLVED IN MY TORTURE AND ABUSE, PRESIDENT OBAMA NOW!
I have a copy of it the warrant in my hands now to be released at any time.
They ransacked my place searched every paper for evidence of where Mladic and Karadzic
were instead (!) http://www.icty.org/case/karadzic/4 Click the link above to see international justice in action. Legal

scholars around the world are not asking why Radovan Karadzic cannot be granted
enough time by the Hague’s Int’l Criminal Court to read his own transcripts for his own
defense, and, have his legal briefs translated before his arraignments (?) so he can defend
himself in the Hague’s highest court. Why can’t he subeana Richard Holbrook as a witness to testify and others in his

behalf possessing important and vital documentary evidence in acting in his own defense (?) If a small court in Paterson

New Jersey and local courts my own small New Jersey municipality can arrange such legal provisions, why won’t the

Hague (?)
After all the Hague claims it does not have enough resources which is doubtful since it claims
necessity to move gold and other international assets on court business unhindered through
interstate borders. The Hague’s highest court globally has just been exposed in one easy blog as as a genuine travesty of

social equitable international justice in all cases in the Former Yugoslavia.
Posted by lpcyusa at 7:40 AM 0 comments US tried to assassinate me: Karadzic to UN court
United States Tried to assassinate me’: Karadzic to UN court
Submitted by Sahil Nagpal on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 06:23.
London, Aug. 1: Former Bosnian-Serb leader Radovan Karadzic has accused the United
States of trying to assassinate him. Appearing before a UN war crimes tribunal in The Hague, Karadzic, who is now

known to his jailers as prisoner number 38, informed Dutch judge Alphons Orie that Richard Holbrooke, the former

United States Assistant Secretary of State, had granted him immunity as part of a wider Bosnia peace deal agreed in

1995.

“My commitment was to withdraw even from literary life and all sorts of public life,” he said.
How else can Karadzic or anyone else sitting at the Hague’s highest court get fair trials in this
matter (?) Intelligence Office Sources also confirm that Ratko Mladic’s life is also in grave danger and it is in his best

interest to remain at all costs away from the Hague until a full investigation is
completed in the death of Slobodan Milosevic as well.
Sources confirm that a mryiad of local NJ doctors knowingly put Jill Starr on enough
combination drugs to overdose herself knowing she was suicidal and depressed at that time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

a at 3:37 PM 0 comments
Comparing Whereby Karadzic & Mladic Treate Me W/NJ Deteecties Harry SHarry Shortway,
Pete Van Gilst, Sorchinski Could Face Murder Charges Sources Sa
Thursday, April 2, 2009
Harry Shortway, Pete Van Gilst, Sorchinski Could Face Murder Charges Sources Say>>
The Instablog.Com website administration today stated on my blog account, I am no longer
authorized to submit articles for some unknown reason. I surmise the reason may be I’m
submitting too many articles at once. Hence, I opened an additional account just so I could
post this follow up comment on my previously written article entitled, Comparing West Milford
Detectives in New Jersey to the Treatment Received By Karadzic and Mladic in Serbia.
Please read it. It is an extremely important legal case I am submitting to the Hague Court in the Netherlands as an

individual complainant from here in the United States of America. I hope it will set an international precedent even in

America people are abused by government officers.
I am fully convinced after almost a decade of asking the legal governmental authorities at
local, state and federal levels here in the United States of America to arrest and try Detective
Harry Shortway and his Sgt. Laughlin in a court of law in America for attempting to murder
me and moreover physically and emotionally torturing me and my family in 1990/1991,
it is clear, the United States of America is either unwilling OR incapable of taking the bold moral
measures to arrest Harry Shortway and associates giving him a fair trial here in America
similarly to what American diplomats such as Hillary Clinton accuse Serbia of not submitting
General Mladic to the Hague for trial. Hypocritical America, don’t you agree (?)
This makes a mockery of genuine ideals insofar as human rights in America while manifesting
extremely gross violations of human rights against me as well as attempted genocide committed
against me by Harry Shortway (on account of allegedly wanting to kill me because I derive
from a Jewish family background and was then married to a black on account of his fascist
affiliations with the National Alliance KKK group). These crimes against me occurred only
thirty minutes away from the United Nations Security Council in Manhattan; I, Jill Starr am
an American citizen and previously wrote the UN about this in the early 1990s.
All together now let’s remember the crime of ‘genocide’ in and of itself, can be the attempt to
kill one OR thousands of members of any ethnic, religious group.
More to come on this story.
-

I AM OFFERING A FINANCIAL REWARD FOR ANY AND ALL INFORMATION LEADING
TO CAPTURE AND ARREST OF DETECTIVE HARRY SHORTWAY FORMER WEST
MILFORD NEW JERSEY DETECTIVE AND HIS SGT. LAUGHLIN AND ASSOCIATES:
1) SGT. LAUGHLIN (IS A TALL RED HAIRED MAN OVER 6 FEET IN HEIGHT AND SLIM
BUILD- HE IS NOT VERY INTELLIGENT). SGT. LAUGHLIN WAS LAST SEEN BY ME IN BACK OF RYAN

MACHINE COMPANY IN THE DRIVEWAY OF THE HOUSE I USED TO RENT WITH MY FAMILY OFF

MACOPIN ROAD IN WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY YANKING ME BY MY LONG HAIR AND BANGING MY

HEAD AGAINST HIS POLICE CAR WHILE HIS ROCKIE PARTNER COP WATCHED. THEN HE SHOVED ME

INTO HIS POLICE CAR IN HANDCUFFING WHICH HE CONTINUED TIGHTENING AGAINST MY WRISTS

TILL THEY BEGAN BLEEDING IN PAIN WHILE I CRIED OUT IN AGONY AND TEARS FOR HIM TO STOP; HE

WOULD NOT STOP AND CONTINUE LAUGHING WHILE HE DROVE ME TO UP TO SEE SHORTWAY WHO

WAS WAITING FOR ME AT THE WEST MILFORD POLICE STATION. I AM OFFERING A FINANCIAL

REWARD FOR ANY AND ALL INFORMATION LEADING TO CAPTURE AND ARREST OF DETECTIVE HARRY

SHORTWAY FORMER WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY DETECTIVE AND HIS SGT. LAUGHLIN AND

ASSOCIATES: 1) SGT. LAUGHLIN (IS A TALL RED WAVY HAIRED MAN OVER 6 FEET IN HEIGHT AND SLIM

BUILD- HE IS NOT VERY INTELLIGENT).
SGT. LAUGHLIN WAS LAST SEEN BY ME IN BACK OF RYAN MACHINE COMPANY IN
THE DRIVEWAY OF THE HOUSE I USED TO RENT IN HIGHCREST LAKE
COMMUNITY WITH MY FAMILY OFF MACOPIN ROAD IN WEST MILFORD NEW
JERSEY YANKING ME BY MY LONG HAIR AND BANGING MY HEAD AGAINST HIS
POLICE CAR ABOUT TEN TIMES NONSTOP WHILE HIS ROCKIE PARTNER COP
STOOD THERE DOING NOTHING MERELY WATCHING ME BE ABUSED.
THEN SGT LAUGHLIN SHOVED ME INTO HIS POLICE CAR IN HANDCUFFS WHICH
HE CONTINUED TIGHTENING AGAINST MY WRISTS TILL THEY BEGAN BLEEDING IN
PAIN WHILE I CRIED OUT IN AGONY AND TEARS FOR HIM TO STOP; HE WOULD
NOT STOP AND CONTINUED LAUGHING WHILE HE DROVE ME TO UP TO SEE
SHORTWAY WHO WAS WAITING FOR ME AT THE WEST MILFORD POLICE STATION.
THIS FINANCIAL REWARD IS CONTINGENT UPON ANY FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT I
MAY RECEIVE IN THE FUTURE FROM THE THREE GRADUATE SCHOOLS
FORMERLY DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ME IN THE MOST VILE MANNERS IN THE NJ
AND NYC AREAS. I WILL OFFER SPLIT EQUITABLE FINANCIAL REWARD OF 50% OF ANY MONEY I

RECEIVE TO THOSE AGENCIES AND/OR INDIVIDUALS COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO HELP BRING THESE

RUTHLESS DETECTIVES AND THEIR SGT’S TO JUSTICE AND JAIL. AND, IF AMERICAN CANNOT FIND THE

MORAL AND POLITICAL WILLPOWER TO BRING THEM TO JUSTICE AND TRIAL HERE IN THE USA, I

WANT THEM EXTRADITED TO THE HAGUE ICC COURT.
In friendship and diplomacy my reputation for honesty proceeds me so all interested persons
and/or parties in helping me bring Shortway and his Sgt Laughlin from West Milford NJ to
trial at teh Hague, can rest assured I will uphold my end of the reward agreement shall I receive financial settlement

myself from the aforementioned colleges in the near future.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychiatric Facility in Wykoff NJ USA

(Ramapo Ridge Hospital) As SEcret Military Tribunal and Torture Facilty

Monday, April 20, 2009
Recovery Leads to Near Death Experience at Ramapo Ridge Psychiatiric Hospital in Wykoff,

New Jersey (U.S.A.)

A few years ago during an incident becoming seemingly common place in my life happening so
often now. The local Bloomingdale New Jersey Police Department again had forced me
physically into a psychiatric Hospital again; this time Chilton Hospital in Paquannock, NJ,
USA. I was in the emergency room once again, for seemingly no reason whatsoever after making
another attempt reporting an incident for investigation to the local Bloomingdale, NJ Police
mentioning issues effecting the entire world.
Anyway, this time Chilton Hospital forced me into a place called Ramapo Ridge Psychiatric
Hospital. They had me on medications dropping my blood pressure to 82 over 67 (i almost
died). They continued to force me to take this medication for at least three weeks in which time
they refused to release me. I was not released for almost one month after arguing with the staff that there was nothing at

all wrong with me. Each day my two regular psychiatrists called Ramapo Ridge Mental Hospital trying to get released.

They refused and Ramapo Ridge told me I had to stand before a judge and court located in the bottom floor of the

building to be released.

After three weeks I had to go downstairs and I actually stood before what seemed to be a “war
crimes tribunal,” in lower level of the Ramapo Ridge .I stood before a judge wearing a regular judicial long black robe

and a line of attorney’s beseeching my release from the hospital.
I dont know to this day what this experience was about; i dread to tell you. Secret types of
military tribunals right here operating in the USA by the CIA (?) Inquiring minds demand

Saturday, March 28, 2009
UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychaitric Hosptial Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff,
New Jersey (U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tibunal and Interrogation
United States :

UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychaitric Hosptial Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff,
New Jersey (U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tibunal and Interrogation Facility)UN NGO In NYC
Confirms United States Used Psychaitric Hosptial Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff, New Jersey
(U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tibunal and Interrogation Facility)
Jill Starr , bloomingdale: Feb 12 2009
United States :
UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychaitric Hosptial Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff,
New Jersey (U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tibunal and Interrogation Facility)A few years ago
during an incident becoming seemingly common place in my life happening so often now. The
local Bloomingdale New Jersey Police Department again had forced me physically into a
psychiatric Hospital again; this time Chilton Hospital in Paquannock, NJ, USA.
I was in the emergency room once again, for seemingly no reason whatsoever after making
another attempt reporting an incident for investigation to the local Bloomingdale, NJ Police
mentioning issues effecting the entire world.
Anyway, this time Chilton Hospital forced me into a place called Ramapo Ridge Psychiatric
Hospital. They had me on medications dropping my blood pressure to 82 over 67 (i almost
died). They continued to force me to take this medication for at least three weeks in which time
they refused to release me.

I was not released for almost one month after arguing with the staff that there was nothing at
all wrong with me. Each day my two regular psychiatrists called Ramapo Ridge Mental
Hospital trying to get released. They refused and Ramapo Ridge told me I had to stand before
a judge and court located in the bottom floor of the building to be released.
After three weeks I had to go downstairs and I actually stood before what seemed to be a “war
crimes tribunal,” in lower level of the Ramapo Ridge . I stood before a judge wearing a regular judicial long black robe

and a line of attorney’s beseeching my release from the hospital.
I dont know to this day what this experience was about; i dread to tell you. Secret types of
military tribunals right here operating in the USA by the CIA (?) Inquiring minds demand
answers. UN NGO In NYC Confirms United States Used Psychaitric Hosptial Ramapo Ridge in Wykoff, New Jersey

(U.S.A. AS Secret Military Tibunal and Interrogation Facility)
Tags: cia, military tribunals, jill starr, rendition

I will also add that now I am scared beyond belief to go to the emergency room at Chilton
Hospital in Pomtpon Plains NJ. WHY (?) Ever since the Bloomingdale, NJ police illegally forced me to continually go into

the psychiatric ward at Chilton against my and my doctors will whenever I make a local police report when I feel my life

is endangered,
when I am physically ill with the flu or something, I notice when I go to the Chilton Hospital
emergency room, instead of taking my injury seriously, the doctors just ask me if I want to go
into the psychiatric section upstairs, strongly suggesting I am being ”paranoid.” Instead of
offering me good medical care. I can never get nondiscriminatory emergency medical care at Chilton hospital without the

hospital itself insisting that I am just being ”paranoid.” And they always call my psychiatrist

whenever I go to their hospital even for the flu! This has led to Arnold Stark my former professor advising me to always

go to St Joseph’s Hospital in Wayne NJ instead which I do n ow.
I will also add that now I am scared beyond belief to go to the emergency room at Chilton
Hospital in Pomtpon Plains NJ. WHY (?)Ever since the Bloomingdale, NJ police illegally forced me to continually go into

the psychiatric ward at Chilton against my and my doctors will whenever I make a local police report when I feel my life

is endangered,
when I am physically ill with the flu or something, I notice when I go to the Chilton Hospital
emergency room, instead of taking my injury seriously, the doctors just ask me if I want to go
into the psychiatric section upstairs, strongly suggesting I am being ”paranoid.” Instead of
offering me good medical care. I can never get nondiscriminatory emergency medical care at Chilton hospital without the

hospital itself insisting that I am just being ”paranoid.” And they always call my psychiatrist whenever I go to their

hospital even for the flu!
This has led to Arnold Stark my former professor advising me to always go to St Joseph’s
Hospital in Wayne NJ instead which I do n ow. Jill Starr
I grew up traveling the world with my parents at age 7. I remember being on the island of
Java in 1970/71 going swimming in the pool at Hotel InterContinentel surrounded by armed
soldiers; and, and flying over Vietnam and my father pointing out "look Jill we are flying over
Vietnam now..." with my Mom. The interesting thing was no commercial airlines flew over
Vietnam until. about one decade ago and certainly not in the 1970s. Sports: Water polo, Soccer
Recreation: Partying, Travel Tags: reading, travel, children, swimming, music, college,


Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me A

Thursday, April 23, 2009
Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me At Ramapo Ridge Facility

Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me At Ramapo Ridge Facility

Jill Starr , bloomingdale: Apr 5 2009
United States :

Mysterious Spooks/ Spirits From My Past Scare Me At Ramapo Ridge Facility
This is the story while I was illegally detained at Ramapo Ridge facility in Wykoff NJ USA, a
man comes in through the front door wearing a one piece janitor outfit and starts mopping for
about 10 minutes .
He looked like one of my father’s former associates from way back in the day (I won’t say who
now).Anyway, he walked out of the men’s room and then tosses his mop aside and unzips his
janitorial outfit revealing a pin striped sharp blue suit, grabs his briefcase behind the front
desks and whisks himself out the front door saying goodbye to me.
Posted by lpcyusa at 10:48 AM 0 comments

Evidence United States Tortured Its Own Citizen

Thursday, April 23, 2009
United States :

Even writing about this experience in this blog to expose it causes me panics attacks I will have

for the rest of my life.

WHAT DO YOU SAY OBAMA (?)
WHICH CIA OPERATIVES WANT THEIR JOCK STRAPS REMOVED FIRST (?)
WE KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS! WHAT DO YOU SAY OBAMA?
When I refused to take the continuous lines of medications at Ramapo Ridge facility I knew that
I was extemely allergic to they told me I needed an ”Attitude adjustment.”
This is when they took me into a solitary confinement room and put my arms and legs in straps
on a horrible bed. The injected me with the medication they told me I was ”going to get one way or another.” For about 4

-6 hours (it is difficult to kow I was drugged) the facility would not allow me a
bedpan or to get up to the bathroom and told me to crap and piss all over msyelf and I could
take a shower when my ”attitude is right.”

After I calmed down because I had no recourse, I was allowed to take a shower they bossed
me around saying ”Go shower now Jill!” I was absolutely tortured right there in NJ USA
Ramapo Ridge Sends Me Back To Chilton Hospital After My First Ambulatory Arrival And
Drug Urine Test Fails Ramapo Ridge Sends Me Back To Chilton Hospital After My First Ambulatory Arrival And Drug

Urine Test Fails
The first time Chilton sent me via ambulance to the Ramapo Ridge facility, the ambulance from
Chilton dropped me off. The Ramapo Ridge facility gave me a urine test as soon as I arrived at
the detention facility in Wykoff NJ USA.
The test was positive for a result because Ramapo Ridge sent me all the way back to Chilton by
way of another ambulance at 3Am in the morning.
The Head Nurse told me “Jill you have to go back to Chilton Hospital because we have to wait
for your urine test to clear from something or the other...) to the best of my memory which is
VERY good as we know is a proven fact.
I was sent back to Chilton Hospital from Ramapo Ridge at about 3 am in the morning until a
urine test that Chilton Hospital in Pompton Plains NJ said that I was able to be transported
back to Ramapo Ridge. It must have been close to 4-5:30 am almost dawn when this occurred to me.
I will continue to release proof and details until the United States of America grants both
Serbia and myself immediate monetary settlements for our troubles.
Serbia and Bonsia and Montenegro are due moneys because of illegal bombing of their
countries and I am owed a sizable financial settlement as stated.
I ask President Obama to immediately work out an out of international court settlement at once
before the news reports it right with MY TRANSLATION!

When the second time I arrived at Ramapo Ridge about 4 am in the morning after
complaining that in my own views there was no reason to send me back and forth between
hospitals in the middle of the night, the Ramapo Ridge facility told me to wait ina room with
magazines and puzzles in it. I worked on a large jigsaw puzzle and heard the Head Nurse say
to a man that looked like a CIA operative ”ENTER THIS TIME IN HER LOG.”
Comment Link

bloomingdale, United States
[Member]
Even writing about this experience in this blog to expose it causes me panics attacks I will have
for the rest of my life.WHAT DO YOU SAY OBAMA (?)
WHICH CIA OPERATIVS WANT THEIR JOCK STRAPS REMOVED FIRST (?)
WE KNOW WHAT THIS MEANS!WAHT DO YOU SAY OBAMA?\
[Member] When I refused to take the continuous lines of medications at Ramapo Ridge facility I knew that I was extemely

allergic to they told me I needed an ”Attitude adjustment.”
This is when they took me into a solitary confinement room and put my arms and legs in straps
on a horrible bed.


The injected me with the medication they told me I was ”going to get one way or another.” For about 4-6 hours (it is

difficult to kow I was drugged) the facility would not allow me a
bedpan or to get up to the bathroom and told me to crap and piss all over msyelf and I could
take a shower when my ”attitude is right.”AFter I calmed down because I had no recourse, I was allowed to take a

shower they bossed me around saying ”Go shower now Jill!”


I was absolutely tortured right there in NJ USA

http://lpcyu.instablogs.com/feed

to Upload an Image from your computer or Enter the url of an Image or a youTube video.
(And again, both Ramapo Ridge and Chilton in Pompton Plains NJ both allowed former doctor
Charlotte Piuck, my former psychiatrist whose license taken away by the New Jersey branch of
American Medical Association, consult with Ramapo Ridge and Chilton doctors whom were
licensed and they agrered with her behind the meddical desk to continue giuving me
medications they all knew I had long hostories of being allergic to.
When I did get allergic reactions in Chilton and Ramapo Ridge BOTH FACILITIES
REFUSED TO GIVE ME BENEDRYL TO COUNTER ACT TE ALLERGIC REACTION
WHICH COULD HAV KILLED ME
Comment Link
Posted by lpcyusa at 10:57 AM 0 comments
Jill Starr, Director of the UN/NGO The Law Projects Center Manhattan Area Office Confirms
She Was Illegally Detained by US Intlligence Officials at Ramapo Ridge Facility in Wykoff NJ
(Secret US Military Tribunal and Interrogation Center) Where She Was Placed In Straight
Jacket and Gave Me Injections
Ramapo Ridge facility also put me in a straight jacket and chained me to the bed in their
facility and gave me injections for hours!eing Drugged and Questioned At Ramapo Ridge in
Wykoff. In addition to being dragged off and illegally detained and imprisoned for over 2.5 weeks in
Ramapo Ridge Psychiatric Facility in Wykoff NJ by Bloomingdale, NJ Police Officials hoping
to collect on information they are trying to get out of me ; they hope sharing in that pot of
million dollar Euros on the Mladic & Karadzic arrest which is why they have abused me so
here locally in NJ USA, the facility at Ramapo Ridge came fully equipped with judges in long black robes and an entire

courtroom with a row of high powered attorneys in high powered suits, for defendants for persons like myself demanding

to be released when their regular doctors continued calling the facility to have the released; and, Ramapo Ridge refused.

Ramapo Ridge also drugged me on medications I had a long history of being allergic to
against my will and kept keeping logs all day and night about “what Jill was rambling about
now,” I remember in my drugged state rambling about Osama bin Laden and some others things
they were trying to force out of me about war crimes in Serbia and Bosnia. I almost died from
the low blood pressures these drugs produced in me and I have Arnold Stark with me when
they took my blood pressure and it was only like 62/90 (!) Arnold said “She could die!” to the
facility doctors but they only forced me to take more medicines. PRSIDENT OBAMA HAS DONE NOTHING FOR

CHANGE! HE LIES AND COVERS THIS UP AND I STILL AWAIT SOME FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT FOR THIS

TORTURE IN NJ USA. ONLY 30 MINUTES FROM THE UNITED NATIONS IN NYCPosted by lpcyusa at 7:54 AM 0

comments
This is why I, Jill Starr, Felt So Safe on a Tivat Montenegro Car Ferry Surrounded By At Least
20 Armed Serbian Soldiers....

Jill Starr Accuses Local Police Of Illegally Serving Search Warrant too (!)
Bloomingdale Police arrested me under the pretense for “drugs,” but they searched illegally
way outside the legal limits of their “search warrant” signed by local Judge Cluff (also serving
in West Milford NJ and he knows Harry Shortway)...The search warrant itself never manifested
any particular place in my home where I had drugs and/or not explicit what types of any drugs
if any the local Bloomingdale NJ Police were looking for in my house and at what location in
my house itself. It was like I was served with a “Patriot Act Warrant” ANYTHING WAS LEGAL FOR THEM TO DO

TO ME!
THE LOCAL DETECTIVE SEARCHED EVERYTHING THREATENING TO PUT ME IN
OB/GYN STIRRUPS AND LOOK UP MY PRIVATES IF THEY COULD NOT FIND WHAT

THEY WERE SEARCHING FOR IN MY HOUSE AND BODY. THEY STRIP SEARCHED ME
WITH A FEMALE PATRON TOO IN TOWNHALL! I DEMAND IMMEDIATE ARRESTS OF CERTAIN LOCAL

BLOOMINGDALE POLICE INVOLVED IN MY TORTURE AND ABUSE, PRESIDENT OBAMA NOW! I have a copy

of it the warrant in my hands now to be released at any time.They ransacked my place searched every paper for evidence

of where Mladic and Karadzic
were instead (!) http://www.icty.org/case/karadzic/4


Legal scholars around the world are not asking why Radovan Karadzic cannot be granted
enough time by the Hague’s Int’l Criminal Court to read his own transcripts for his own
defense, and, have his legal briefs translated before his arraignments (?) so he can defend
himself in the Hague’s highest court. Why can’t he subeana Richard Holbrook as a witness to testify and others in his

behalf possessing important and vital documentary evidence in acting in his own defense (?)If a small court in Paterson

New Jersey and local courts my own small New Jersey municipality can arrange such legal provisions, why won’t the

Hague (?) fter all the Hague claims it does not have enough resources which is doubtful since it claims necessity to move

gold and other international assets on court business unhindered through interstate borders.
The Hague’s highest court globally has just been exposed in one easy blog as as a genuine
travesty of social equitable international justice in all cases in the Former Yugoslavia.

Posted by lpcyusa at 7:40 AM 0 comments
US tried to assassinate me: Karadzic to UN court

United States Tried to assassinate me’: Karadzic to UN court
Submitted by Sahil Nagpal on Fri, 08/01/2008 - 06:23.

London, Aug. 1: Former Bosnian-Serb leader Radovan Karadzic has accused the United States of trying to assassinate

him. Appearing before a UN war crimes tribunal in The Hague, Karadzic, who is now known to his jailers as prisoner

number 38, informed Dutch judge Alphons Orie that Richard Holbrooke, the former United States Assistant Secretary of

State, had granted him immunity as part of a wider Bosnia peace deal agreed in 1995.“My commitment was to withdraw

even from literary life and all sorts of public life,” he said. How else can Karadzic or anyone else sitting at the Hague’s

highest court get fair trials in this Intelligence Office Sources also confirm that Ratko Mladic’s life is also in grave danger

and it is in his best interest to remain at all costs away from the Hague until a full investigation is completed in the death

of Slobodan Milosevic as well.
Sources confirm that a mryiad of local NJ doctors knowingly put Jill Starr on enough
combination drugs to overdose herself knowing she was suicidal and depressed at that time.

Comparing Whereby Karadzic & Mladic Treate Me W/NJ Detectives Harry SHarry Shortway,

Pete Van Gilst, Sorchinski Could Face Murder Charges Sources Sa
Thursday, April 2, 2009 Harry Shortway, Pete Van Gilst, Sorchinski Could Face Murder Charges Sources Say>>

It is an extremely important legal case I am submitting to the Hague Court in the Netherlands as an individual

complainant from here in the United States of America. I hope it will set an
international precedent even in America people are abused by government officers.
I am fully convinced after almost a decade of asking the legal governmental authorities at
local, state and federal levels here in the United States of America to arrest and try Detective
Harry Shortway and his Sgt. Laughlin in a court of law in America for attempting to murder
me and moreover physically and emotionally torturing me and my family in 1990/1991,
it is clear, the United States of America is either unwilling OR incapable of taking the bold moral
measures to arrest Harry Shortway and associates giving him a fair trial here in America
similarly to what American diplomats such as Hillary Clinton accuse Serbia of not submitting

General Mladic to the Hague for trial.

Hypocritical America, don’t you agree (?) This makes a mockery of genuine ideals insofar as human rights in America

while manifesting extremely gross violations of human rights against me as well as attempted genocide committed against

me by Harry Shortway (on account of allegedly wanting to kill me because I derive from a Jewish family background and

was then married to a black on account of his fascist affiliations with the National Alliance KKK group). These crimes

against me occurred only thirty minutes away from the United Nations Security Council in Manhattan; I, Jill Starr am an

American citizen and previously wrote the UN about this in the early 1990s.
All together now let’s remember the crime of ‘genocide’ in and of itself, can be the attempt to
kill one OR thousands of members of any ethnic, religious group. More to come on this story.
-

I AM OFFERING A FINANCIAL REWARD FOR ANY AND ALL INFORMATION LEADING
TO CAPTURE AND ARREST OF DETECTIVE HARRY SHORTWAY FORMER WEST
MILFORD NEW JERSEY DETECTIVE AND HIS SGT. LAUGHLIN AND ASSOCIATES:

1) SGT. LAUGHLIN (IS A TALL RED HAIRED MAN OVER 6 FEET IN HEIGHT AND SLIM
BUILD- HE IS NOT VERY INTELLIGENT). SGT. LAUGHLIN WAS LAST SEEN BY ME IN BACK OF RYAN

MACHINE COMPANY IN THE DRIVEWAY OF THE HOUSE I USED TO RENT WITH MY FAMILY OFF

MACOPIN ROAD IN WEST MILFORD NEW JERSEY YANKING ME BY MY LONG HAIR AND BANGING MY

HEAD AGAINST HIS POLICE CAR WHILE HIS ROCKIE PARTNER COP WATCHED. THEN HE SHOVED ME

INTO HIS POLICE CAR IN HANDCUFFING WHICH HE CONTINUED TIGHTENING AGAINST MY WRISTS

TILL THEY BEGAN BLEEDING IN PAIN WHILE I CRIED OUT IN AGONY AND TEARS FOR HIM TO STOP; HE

WOULD NOT STOP AND CONTINUE LAUGHING WHILE HE DROVE ME TO UP TO SEE SHORTWAY WHO

WAS WAITING FOR ME AT THE WEST MILFORD POLICE STATION.

I AM OFFERING A FINANCIAL REWARD FOR ANY AND ALL INFORMATION LEADING
TO CAPTURE AND ARREST OF DETECTIVE HARRY SHORTWAY FORMER WEST
MILFORD NEW JERSEY DETECTIVE AND HIS SGT. LAUGHLIN AND ASSOCIATES:
1) SGT. LAUGHLIN (IS A TALL RED WAVY HAIRED MAN OVER 6 FEET IN HEIGHT
AND SLIM BUILD- HE IS NOT VERY INTELLIGENT).
SGT. LAUGHLIN WAS LAST SEEN BY ME IN BACK OF RYAN MACHINE COMPANY IN
THE DRIVEWAY OF THE HOUSE I USED TO RENT IN HIGHCREST LAKE
COMMUNITY WITH MY FAMILY OFF MACOPIN ROAD IN WEST MILFORD NEW
JERSEY YANKING ME BY MY LONG HAIR AND BANGING MY HEAD AGAINST HIS
POLICE CAR ABOUT TEN TIMES NONSTOP WHILE HIS ROCKIE PARTNER COP
STOOD THERE DOING NOTHING MERELY WATCHING ME BE ABUSED.
THEN SGT LAUGHLIN SHOVED ME INTO HIS POLICE CAR IN HANDCUFFS WHICH
HE CONTINUED TIGHTENING AGAINST MY WRISTS TILL THEY BEGAN BLEEDING IN
PAIN WHILE I CRIED OUT IN AGONY AND TEARS FOR HIM TO STOP; HE WOULD
NOT STOP AND CONTINUED LAUGHING WHILE HE DROVE ME TO UP TO SEE
SHORTWAY WHO WAS WAITING FOR ME AT THE WEST MILFORD POLICE STATION.
THIS FINANCIAL REWARD IS CONTINGENT UPON ANY FINANCIAL SETTLEMENT I

MAY RECEIVE IN THE FUTURE FROM THE THREE GRADUATE SCHOOLS
FORMERLY DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ME IN THE MOST VILE MANNERS IN THE NJ
AND NYC AREAS. I WILL OFFER SPLIT EQUITABLE FINANCIAL REWARD OF 50% OF ANY MONEY I

RECEIVE TO THOSE AGENCIES AND/OR INDIVIDUALS COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO HELP BRING THESE

RUTHLESS DETECTIVES AND THEIR SGT’S TO JUSTICE AND JAIL. AND, IF AMERICAN CANNOT FIND

THE MORAL AND POLITICAL WILLPOWER TO BRING THEM TO JUSTICE AND TRIAL HERE IN THE USA, I

WANT THEM EXTRADITED TO THE HAGUE ICC COURT.
In friendship and diplomacy my reputation for honesty proceeds me so all interested persons
and/or parties in helping me bring Shortway and his Sgt Laughlin from West Milford NJ to
trial at the Hague, can rest assured I will uphold my end of the reward agreement shall I receive financial settlement

myself from the aforementioned colleges in the near future.


lpcyusa said...

I Felt many Times Safer With General Ratko Mladic Than I Do Sitting Alone In My Apartment
In Bloomingdale, NJ USA
As an after thought on my book. I doubt very much that I met Mr. Mladic on a ”boat
restaurant.” There was no one else present having dinner.
It as more like a living and/or conference setting and seems to me now to be more like a private
yacht. I have never really been on one before but it reminded me of photos I’ve seen of the
interior of Onassis’s yachts.
I felt many times more safer sitting with General Ratko Mladic Than I Do Sitting At Home In
My Apartment In Bloomingdale, NJ US!
Although it may sound foreign to many here in America, I would feel safer having the Serbian
Army as my bodyguards here at my house in Bloomingdale, NJ where I rent a small apartment
to protect me from the local townships’ corrupt law enforcement officials and if I had teh
finances I hire a few.


lpcyusa said...

I Felt many Times Safer With General Ratko Mladic Than I Do Sitting Alone In My Apartment
In Bloomingdale, NJ USA
As an after thought on my book. I doubt very much that I met Mr. Mladic on a ”boat
restaurant.” There was no one else present having dinner.
It as more like a living and/or conference setting and seems to me now to be more like a private
yacht. I have never really been on one before but it reminded me of photos I’ve seen of the
interior of Onassis’s yachts. I felt many times more safer sitting with General Ratko Mladic Than I Do Sitting At Home In

My Apartment In Bloomingdale, NJ US!

Although it may sound foreign to many here in America, I would feel safer having the Serbian
Army as my bodyguards here at my house in Bloomingdale, NJ where I rent a small apartment
to protect me from the local townships’ corrupt law enforcement officials and if I had teh
finances I hire a few.

Former United States CIA Assassins Confess To Jill

Monday, April 20, 2009
Former United States CIA Assassins Confess To Jill Starr About America's War Crimes In


Vietnam, South and Central America. I heard and saw no evidence of any war crimes in either Serbia and/or

Montengro.No one went around chatting about committing war crimes, but right here in the United States of America I

used to date a former West Point Professor who worked in the CIA/NSA as a military mercenary and assassin.
As a former US military commander he confessed to me terrible war crimes, civilian and child
rapes entire squads of US armed military groups committed together in Vietnam and also in
South and Central America etc. If the Hague wants to prosecute people for crimes against humanity, I can begin to give

them an entire list of US CIA crimes committed under US Presidential orders in Central and South America , Cuba and

Vietnam in which US military commanders gave orders to their groups to rape and pillage entire villages in Vietnam etc...


Where does the Hague really want to start on US WAr Crimes (?) Ready, On Your Mark, Get
bloomingdale, United States IN fact one man told me that the CIa made him and his military comrades commit terrible

rapes against children, old women and others during his Vietnam War torture. He said he and others were scared to

intervene and stop it because the other US servicemen
would have shot then on account of disobeying ”direct orders” that it was ”Ok for the
squadron of that particular US Military formation ” to act like that .
This former CIA man said he tuned into an drinker because he found it very hard to live daily
with these crimes and other assassinations he carried out under direct US military orders in
Nicuragua etc.. like cutting murdering people for the CIA etc. by cutting their throats.
How the CIA used maids and housekeepers to spy directly on leading politicians of many
his person became very angry with the US government and wrote several books. he also said the underground map room

at West Point was under neath the parking (underground) to the left. Welcome Jill Starr. Join the discussion!

Posted by lpcyusa at 6:04 PM 0 comments
Former United States CIA Assassins Confess To Jill Starr About America's War Crimes In

Vietnam, South and Central America Former United States CIA Assassins Confess To Jill Starr About America's War

Crimes In Vietnam, South and Central America.
I heard and saw no evidence of any war crimes in either Serbia and/or Montengro.
No one went around chatting about committing war crimes, but right here in the United States
of America I used to date a former West Point Professor who worked in the CIA/NSA as a
military mercenary and assassin. As a former US military commander he confessed to me terrible war crimes, civilian and

child rapes entire squads of US armed military groups committed together in Vietnam and also in South and Central

America etc.
If the Hague wants to prosecute people for crimes against humanity, I can begin to give them
an entire list of US CIA crimes committed under US Presidential orders in Central and South
America , Cuba and Vietnam in which US military commanders gave orders to their groups to
rape and pillage entire villages in Vietnam etc... Where does the Hague really want to start on US WAr Crimes (?) Ready,

On Your Mark, Get IN fact one man told me that the CIa made him and his military comrades commit terrible rapes

against children, old women and others during his Vietnam War tour.He said he and others were scared to intervene and

stop it because the other US servicemen
would have shot then on account of disobeying ”direct orders” that it was ”Ok for the
squadron of that particular US Military formation ” to act like that . This former CIA man said he tuned into an drinker

because he found it very hard to live daily with these crimes and other assassinations he carried out under direct US

military orders in Nicuragua etc.. like cutting murdering people for the CIA etc. by cutting their throats.

How the CIA used maids and housekeepers to spy directly on leading politicians of many
Subscribe to: Posts (Atom)

lpcyusa said...

Monday, April 20, 2009
Robert Latham at New School Allowed Ethnic Albanian To Condone Genocide Against Serbian Orthodox Christians in Kosovo Posted 3/2/2009 2:37 PM EST

Miss Jill Louis Star wrote:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lpcyusa/JillStarrSEmergencyInternationalHumanRightsAlerts# -> (Get the Photo Evidenbce Against Robert Latham, David PLotke and Addie Pollis Here ).

/>> > Dear Friends: I have told this factual autobiographical account prior. However, this
was during the height of NATO’s illegal war launched against Jugoslavija so I am unsure if this e-mail ever reached the entire audience for which it was intended. Hence, I am re-sending a brief account of whereby one United States University in New York City assisted Bill Clinton and Tony Blair in plotting, orchestrating, launching and perpetuating Albanian-KLA Nationalism and ethnic genocide directed against the Orthodox Christian Serbs in Kosovo. (See Attachment for formal proof).
/>> >
/>> > I. It was in the Fall of 1997, my first semester in graduate school at the New School for Social Research when I noticed the bulletin on the wall that announced the Albanian Pro-KLA Nationalist Fatmos Ljubonia was going to give a lecture on Albanian Nationalism at the New School for Social Research in NYC (5th and 14th Streets in Wolffe Conference Room 2nd floor). This lecture was undoubtedly funded by the USIP and the WPI (the World Policy Institute resides on the fourth floor of the schools location).
/>> >
/>> > II. Evidently, this particular lecture sparked my interest like none other owing to my serious commitment in following the various political & international trends regarding the Kosovo / Serbia & Bosnia wars and what would occur next. Therefore I made it my business to sit in on this lecture.
/>> >
/>> > III. At that time, primarily the students attending this lecture and (it was a full house) were from parts of the world (like Asia) who knew nothing about Serbia and Kosovo. So they were very interested to hear what Fatmos Ljubonia had to say about the plight of the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo. There were only two graduate students who really knew what was going on in Kosovo at that time between the Albanians and the Serbs. (me and this Albanian student). I sat in for about 1 and 1/2 hours taking notes and listening. Then I left. Here is a short and brief description of the lecture.
/>> >
/>> > IV. Primarily Fatmos at first attempted to elicit as much sympathy as humanly possible from the New School graduate students. He began the lecture by explaining that the Serbian government had imprisoned him for 20 years. and treated him in an inhumane manner. He did not explain why to us.
/>> >
/>> > V. He quickly then shifted (to be blunt)–he spent the rest of his lecture lying to the
(students) about the current situation in Kosovo. He supplied lies as answers to the students questions about Serbia, Albania and Kosovo and Fatmos completely bad-mouthed the Serbian government blaming it, for myriad human right violations not only committed against him (as he claimed) but also against him all ethnic Albanians in Kosovo.
/>> >
/>> > VI. He completely this question and answer session quite pleased with himself since most of my classmates later indicated to me that they were shocked to hear about the conditions under which Fatmos claimed the ethnic Albanians were living under in Kosovo. I knew the man was a filthy liar but I could not say anything at the time. So he lied lied and he lied more!

VI. As I said I left early but I will never forget his phrase stating: “I, Fatmos Ljubonia, have come to the New School for Social Research to ask you, The New School students, to give me, Fatmos Ljubonia, new creative nationalist ideas to PROMOTE AND TO CONSTRUCT A GREATER ALBANIA!”
/>> >
/>> > VII. Now there were a hell of a lot of New School faculty members also present who knew the truth about what really was going on between Serbia, the Western liberal think tanks at the New School for Social Research and their king, Bill Clinton regarding Kosovo. However, evidently these were the same political science professors such as David PLotke who later tossed me out of graduate school only three weeks prior my anticipated MA graduation date on April 22 1999 at knife point (we all know about my Civil Rights Case against the school #02-99-2132.
/>> >
/>> > VIII. I, Jill Starr have always stood up for the right political and social group, the Serbs of course. For it was not the Serbian authorities fault that NATO members and their corrupted politicians with a guilty as hell mens rea instigated and escalated the present ethnic contentions and genocide now occurring in Kosovo today!
/>> >
/>> > XV. For this reason it does not surprise me that the semester before I was tossed out of school by POL SCI DEPT. CHAIR David Plotke, during my classes with the renown Robert Latham (from the SSRC in NYC) no one did anything when my Albanian classmate stated in front of many UN Diplomats that he 100% promoted “ethnic genocide against the Orthodox Christian Serbs in Kosovo!” Of course I reported the incident to both my human rights professor Adamantia Polllis and also the Dept. Chair David Plotke, yet neither of them did a damn thing! What they did do is allow my Albanian classmate to continue going to school and graduate while they decided to throw me out of school and ruin my life to the best of their corrupt abilities!
/>> >
/>> > X. The Albanian classmate of mine even said to me in front of Robert Latham’s entire class (FALL 1998) this to me when I said I’d like to see a copy of his paper which he said is written to promote ethnic genocide against Orthodox Christian Serbs in Kosovo this— />”Jill, you will surely die before you ever see my term paper!” The New School faculty threw me out and kept the genocidal Albanian on April 22 1999! See attachments!
/>> >
/>> > PS: I’d like to give some lectures describing this experience in America to my friends in Serbia. David PLotke even came towards me with a swiss army knife!
/>> >
/>> > Respectfully,
/>> > Miss Jill Louise Starr USA
/>> > PO BOX 635
/>> > Newfoundland NJ 07435 USA
/>> > (973) 208-8372
/>>

Post your own opinion for: ROBERT LATHAM
http://picasaweb.google.com/lpcyusa
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=================================================================
Monday, April 20, 2009
The New School for Social Research and how they spend US tax dollars! Posted 3/2/2009 2:35 PM EST

Read about the New School for Social Research and how they spend US tax dollars! What do you say now Kerry?

Dear Provost of NEW SCHOOL FOR SOCIAL RESEARCH JONATHON FANTON[ NEW YORK CITY 212-229-5777]:

I am requesting a formal hearing by the New School University Wide Committee on Harassment. I have filed numerous and grave discriminatory harassment complaints against certain New School Graduate Faculty Officials as well as professors. My complaints have not been appropriately dealt with or resolved in either an honest or a moral manner by New School Graduate Faculty members as far as I am concerned. Furthermore, Eliza Nichols, the very first person against whom I filed an initial complaint against for her emotionally abusive behavior directed at me on March 30th, 1999, (as Dean McIntyre is well aware of), is in a DIRECT “conflict of interest” when it comes to dealing with any other complaints that I may have filed. She should neither be meddling nor partaking in my legal New School complaint mediation process, unless, it concerns the complaint that I filed against her. I am a State of NJ Certified Court Mediator so I familiar with these issues. Eliza presumably is one of the few persons who Dean McIntyre seems to be dealing with (see the CC on his letters, which bar me from future studies at the New School, dated May 29 1999).

I allege that certain New School Graduate Faculty Department Officials have been impeding, and with malicious intent, my: graduating from the New School for Social Research which was supposed to take place this past week. Registering for any class given at the New School University regardless of either a) the division, or b) even if I have the cold cash to pay for classes by myself. This is explicit and direct, Discriminatory Harassment! These are VERY serious Civil Right violations that have been committed directly against me by many New School Graduate Faculty Members and I want them seriously investigated. I further allege:


Professor Louise Tilly gave me a bad grade of a C- last semester Fall 1998) due to her discriminating against me for my strong belief in God. I allege Professor Tilly clearly disdains my Orthodox Christian Faith. Her assistant professor was an atheist man from Iran. I have both Atheist and Human Secularist friends. I never encountered any
such a problems prior either in or out of university settings before I took, Professor Tilly’s historiography class last semester. All one needs to do is to view a few of the copy written works written by Charles and Louise Tilly to clearly see their seemingly clear distaste for religion in general. In one such work that I ironically read for another class there were quotes from Mr. and Mrs. Tilly, on religion. It went something like this: ‘religion must be destroyed because it is the opiate of the people and also it impedes Marxist-Communist Revolutions.’ I also allege that Professor Tilly does not have the historical background and/or knowledge necessary for grading pre-Revolutionary Theological Orthodox Christian Historical sources to enable her to grade my historiography paper on Empress Aleksandra from the, Fall 1998 semester.

I am a member of the Int’l Romanov Society. The Orthodox Christian Church is prepared to support my case against Ms. Tilly. Various Church members and even Archbishop have seen Professor Tilly’s comments on my paper. They also have seen the manner in which Professor Tilly revised my Orthodox Christian Theological sources which were in quotes in my paper. The Church will be my witness against Ms. Tilly at this hearing that I am now requesting! To me, what Professor Tilly has done even worse than pure plagiarism! I have a copy of the paper here.

Almost all her corrections are either “crossing directly through my religious references to God/religion”, and/or revising the meaning of my theological sources entirely. This is not acceptable behavior from a New School Professor. As for Professor Tilly’s own complaints about the “formatting” of the paper. Ms.Tilly readily admits to having lost my original paper. I therefore had to give her a rough draft of an old paper from last semester. Luckily I had left after I had a hard disk crash left year.

Therefore is Professor Tilly is displeased with my formatting, it is her own fault since she admits to printing this rough draft from an e-mail attachment herself! I have proof here. I also have a note here from Ms. Louise Tilly indicating that she would be happy to allow me to “revise” the paper. However, the Orthodox Christian Church and I both agree that the substance of the paper should remain as is. It is important for Historians to understand whereby Orthodox Christians understand and conduct “historiography.”

I took the Cultural approach to historiography that President of the American Historical Association took, Lynn Hunt, in the book that I read for Ms. Tilly’s class entitled, “Telling the Truth about History.” (I have a copy Professor Tilly’s syllabus). As for my more serious complaint against Professor Plotke. On April 22,1999 Professor Plotke and I had a meeting to discuss my future at the New School. David Plotke has barred my registering for: Fall 1999, summer 1999 classes, and also any future studies at the New School.

I still am told by Dean McIntyre that Jill Starr is absolutely forbidden to so much as take one class now or in the future at the New School for Social Research, even, if I personally pay for a class with my own cash! The New School has ads in both NYC Newspapers, and also Subways in NYC for students. Hence, I find it exceedingly discriminatory that Jill Starr is being told that she has not has human right to register for summer classes or any other classes at the New School University.

Back to David Plotke now: On April 22, 1999 at approximately 5-5:30pm, Professor David Plotke called me into his office and told me that I was no longer a student at the New School! I had no prior oral or written warning before David Plotke told me that I was no longer a New School student in his very emotionally abusive manner! Furthermore, I, Jill Starr, never once broke any New School rule or regulation as Dean McIntyre’s May 29th 1999 letter confirms. In this letter May 29, 1999 (I will send you the copies of it) Dean McIntyre states that he and the New School Graduate Faculty all “met”, and collectively decided to strangle and condemn to “death”, Jill Starr’s future studies at the New School for Social Research. Also, Professor and Chair of Political Science David Plokte used a “non-verbal” fighting word.

I allege Mr. David Plotke came towards me in his office with a small camping knife/file on that same date and time Moreover, David Plotke on that date tried to “BRIBE ME” into accepting his so called “deal”. In David Plotke’s “deal”, he tried to verbally coerce me to accept this following “bribe” (I am truthful and it was a BRIBE!): David Plotke’s “bribery story” goes like this: ‘I David Plotke am willing to offer you (Jill Starr), a deal/BRIBE… since you are no longer welcomed to take classes at the New School....you can accept that your future studies and any hopes for entering into the Ph.D. program are through…and Jill, if you agree to not cause me any problems (like filing complaints against David Plotke he meant to say).and you (Me) take this bribe nicely, then I, David Plotke, will read over your MA Thesis and allow you to one day graduate.’ I REFUSED TO ACCEPT DAVID’S BRIBERY! He got angry and told me to get out of his office. I went directly to the Office of Student Affairs and then I filed a formal complaint in my own hand writing (I have a copy here and it will be mailed to you certified next Tuesday after Labor Day).

David Plotke is unsure as to whether my voice activated “mike was on” at the time since David also said basically, ‘Either, ‘Jill Starr accepts my deal and she does not register for Fall l999 classes at the New School OR, she never Graduates at all.” This is illegal behavior that David Plotke took part in, never mind it being 100% underhanded and also unethical!

Now let me explain some of my complaint against Eliza Nicholas: Eliza Nicholas is woman whom I have a clear open and shut case against! I will prove to the world if necessary that on March 30 1999 when I met with Eliza, she was only acting as David Plotke’s, “hatchet woman” (David did not want to do the toss Jill Starr out of the New School “dirty work himself, obviously we know why.

So Eliza Nicholas attempted to verbally abuse me into, and in the process of such abuse, Eliza proceeded to clearly “lie” to me (a student at the New School at the time), about New School student regulations which is a VERY, serious offence. (I am sure that you all would agree). Eliza Nicholas on March 30 1999 told me that I had no “choice”. She told me that Jill Starr MUST, take an, “indefinite leave of absence from the New School in the Fall 1999 semester.” I refused to do this! I STILL REFUSE TO DO IT!

My doctor thinks that my attending the New School is the best thingfor helping my emotional well being (minus any abusive discriminatory harassment from any New School Officials)! Now Eliza told me that after I took this “indefinite leave of absence” in the Fall of 1999, that “you (Jill) cannot come back to the New School as a student ‘Jill IS EVALUATED BY NEW SCHOOL PSCCHIATRISTS!” Eliza also told me,’YOU MUST CHANGE YOU MEDICATIONS JILL— BEFORE YOU RETURN TO THE NEW SCHOOL!’ My doctor called Professor Adamantia Pollis about this incident and I am sure that Addie will fill you all in on the discourse between herself, and my doctor about the Eliza incident!’ My doctor fully is against this inhumane treatment directed against me by New School Professors and Officials! I have become exceedingly depressed with suicidal feeling (and increased anxiety) because of the manner in which the New School has treated my complaints! This has impaired most of my daily functions, including writing my paper this Summer for Addie Pollis! My doctor says it is absolutely absurd that Eliza demand from me (she has no authority to tell me that I am no longer a student! And as far as David Plotke goes, David can only bar me from future studies WITH THE PROVOST’S Permission (see page 63 student handbook) And this is a power that only the New School, PROVOST has that David Plotke took into his own hands by DISMISSING ME, A STUDENT ON THE SPOT on April 22, 1999!

Prof. Plotke took matters into his own hands (the law into his own hands it seems when he in an extremely criminal manner to told me, Jill Starr, that I should leave the school 4-ever. Eliza also demanded that I take an immediate leave of beginning this Fall 1999. BUIT NOW: Dean McIntyre and Eliza (see letters to come via certified mail), that Jill Starr am, thrown out of the the New School Completely! This is criminal behavior and nothing more! Even my doctor states that the Fall 1999 semester is almost half a year away! She thought that I need time off this summer perhaps! I get it anyway it seems!

Then we have the grave matter of Eliza Nicholas VIOLATING MY FEDERAL HUMAN RIGHTS (US LAW)! She violated the patient - client federal confidentiality law when Eliza Nicolas, after I told her that in NO MANNER WOULD I ALLOW HER TO CALL MY DOCTOR WITHOUT MY WRITTEN CONSENT, she did it anyway! She called Dr. Charlotte Piuck and without my legal written consent to attempt to get my doctor to tell her, that “I was dangerous”. I allege that she committed this illegal and mindless Action only for the purpose of Eliza 1) trying to assist David Plotke throw me out of the New School in an emotionally abusive manner, and 2) to protect her own job because I also accused her of violating my “CIVIL RIGHTS”!

This is entirely inappropriate behavior for New School Graduate Faculty Members to engage in! Then I have Dean McIntyre’s letters (this is what this is a response to). I allege that Linda Reimer lied in those letter as did Dean McIntyre. Either this, or, they do not have proper information or memories. Also there is the grave issue of Nancy Shealy e-mailing me to inform that “David will be away until August 1999 so not to come to meet with him on April 22 1999.”! I complained against Nancy Shealy also (I have copies!)Since Addie Pollis e-mailed me (I have copies), saying that she will have no choice but to” support the New School” in their Criminally Abusive Civil Right Violations against me.

By the way Addie, I hope that you change you mind now after you know the FULL TRUTH!) ..........I now allege, that Professor Pollis has rejected at least FOUR, 10-15 page term papers I submitted to her this semester as rough drafts for my completing her course requirement for the, Politics of Development. It is quite clear at this point (I have seen this before many a time over) that New School Officials are impeding my completing Addie Pollis’a class. How? They are pressuring Addie Pollis I allege and am ready to prove, not to allow me to “pass her class”. Illegal, yes, but it happens all the time!

Furthermore, Addie Pollis is a professor I have always greatly admired. Admantia Pollis and I never prior, had any problems about her “understanding my topics/papers.” In fact, Addie Pollis IS, the ONLY Professor that I can still “somewhat respect” at the New School now. From my first semester at the New School, Addie Pollis came to me and asked me “WHEREFORE MY WRITING WAS SO FRAGMENTED”. (I have an attention deficit disorder, which worsens with stress)! Addie and only Anthony Pereira have attempted to accommodate my disability! David Plotke “said it is not up for discussion on April 22 1999 when he through me out of the New School!” Gee, thanks David (for nothing that is)!

In fact Addie Pollis, she has up to now always assisted me because she knows that Jill Starr has been on permanent disability for about 9 years (SOCIAL SECURITY). Anthony Pereira was another very good professor.

I took his class Military State and Society (A PRO-SEMINAR DAVID!) in my Fall 1997 semester at the New School. I was told by BOTH 1) David Plotke, and 2) JIM NOLT, that later this class could perhaps be used as a pro-seminar.

There are the other 3 credits David Plotke you claim that impede
my graduation! Most every one of the University Officials whom I have filed official complaints against for they’re abusive discriminatory harassment against me should not, and this goes double for the case of Ms. Eliza Nichols who has a direct conflict of interest in my case since I have filed a formal complaint against her. Professor David Plotke suspended me from the New School and also any future studies on April 22, 1999 in an emotionally and threatening manner with no prior notice! (SEE PAGE 63 STUDENT HANDBOOK ON THE PROVOST HOLDING THATEXECUTIVE POWER PROF. PLOTKE. Any questions? Good.

Please start investigations leading to a hearing in reference to my complaints right away. As for Ms. Louise Tilly who contrary to what Linda Reimer stated in her letter (see cc: to Dean McIntyre dated May 29 1999) I never met with Miss Tilly to resolve my “complaint informally.” Lies and more *amned lies! I never had a 2.2 GPA and when I came to the New School my GPA was 3.57 from previous school! Not as Dean McIntyre says it is now, a 2.2!

I not only allege that Ms. Tilly discriminated against me on 1) religiousgrounds,2)-I petition for a grade change, and 3) I still allege she has not the knowledge to grade a paper using pre-Revolutionary Russia Theological sources! I want a formal hearing about my complaints against: David, Louise, Shealy, Nicholas, and now I am bordering on suing the school in general!

Respectfully Submitted,

Jill L Starr

PS: I WANT TO REGISTER FOR CLASSES ON TUESDAY THIS WEEK.

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lpcyu wrote:
Office for Civil Rights & US Dept. of Education (District II / NY)
Mr. John Carroll
75 Park Place
New York, NY 10007

Jill L Starr
PO BOX 635
Newfoundland NJ 07435

Re: Civil Rights Case# 02-99-2132
Dear Mr. Carroll,
I am writing you concerning a matter of grave and immanent importance regarding my Appeal on Civil Rights Case #02-99-2132.
As you may be aware, I was granted an extension of time by the New School for Social Research to satisfy the incomplete grade in the course entitled Political Development taught by Professor Adamantia Pollis which I was forced to accept an incomplete grade in last Spring 1999. The extension granted to me gives me until mid-May 2000 to complete the paper which is the principle requirement for this course.
In order to complete this paper I need to consult with Professor Pollis, and also have access to the New School University Library which has been denied me in spite of repeated requests to allow me access to this and other necessary New School facilities.
It may be of further interest to note, that I am currently on a medical leave of absence from the University that I currency attend. Hence, I wish to seek a further extension of the deadline for completion of this course.
I have attempted to contact all of the administrators of the New School for Social Research involved in my Civil Rights Case# 02-99-2132 including Nancy Shealy (Political Science Dept. Secretary) who has repeatedly hung up on my telephone calls on all occasions to the school which have all been without success.
Furthermore, the New School administration had assured me that I would be granted access to necessary library and other facilities if I contacted the New School VP of Student Affairs Ms. Linda Reimer who would arrange for security guards to accompany me.
Needless to say this has caused me to suffer grave emotional consequences. VP Linda Reimer has persistantly refused for the last six months to honour this and other New School agreements concerning the aforementioned.
If the New School persists in this refusal to honor its own agreements, I think it is only fair that they should immediately grant me a monetary refund for the tuition I paid for Professor Pollis’s Political Development course ASAP.
I can supply strong evidence to support these assertions and I would appreciate your earliest attention to this matter. Thanking you in advance for your gracious help. I remain

Respectfully Yours,

Miss Jill Louise Starr
(973) 208-8372
Go TO MY WEB SITE TO SEE THE SCANNED EVIDENCE!
http://members.tripod.com/Thaissa/first.htm

==================================================================
New School Professor Louise Tilly Fails Russian

Friday, April 24, 2009
Vladyko Theodore Grrew Up in Tsar Nicholas Palace Old Russia


His grave site is here in West Milford and I try to visit his grave often as possible.

In Orthodox Christian Churches worldwide, it is well documented that many years ago when president of Peugeot Oil Company in France was still alive; he wrote his will. After passing away, in his will he designated Vladyko Theodore that you see in the photo above, to undertake his funeral services. This was when Vladyko Theodore was a much younger man; my story can be verified.

Vladyko Theodore who was not in France at the time of his death, came thereto as wishes in the will revealed. There were several close relatives and friends at the funeral services witnessesing this, then. Vladyko Theodore as I am told walked into a room where the dead man laid closing the door.

After about an hour of praying in the room alone, Vladyko Theodore walked out with the formerly dead president of the aforementioned oil company alive (the man walked out with VLadyko Theodore ALLIVE, in other words). The variant persons waiting outside the door claim to have seen an ’uncreated light’ emanating from the room in which Vladyko Theodore prayed with the dead man; from whence the light emerged it is unknown.

This is only one of the many miracles Vladyko Theodore is known for. Before Romanov family in Russia was executed by the Bolshevik’s, Empress Alexandra gave to Vladyko Theodore (+), the beard of Saint Seraphum of Sarov. It was in his possession until he passed it onto a monastic order of monks in Texas in the United States before the year 2000.

Moreover, we here in West Milford, NJ had an Orthodox Christian priest join us from England. His name was, Father James; he recently passed on. He had worked for England’s police force; he had his leg/s amputated (I don’t remember now if both were amputated or merely one).

Notwithstanding, before he came to stay at the Holy Name Abbey in West Milford NJ where I attend church, he was scheduled in England for surgery; he had prostate cancer. The evening prior to his surgery, he claims Vladyko Theodore (who had long since passed away) came to him in a vision telling him his cancer would be cured, but he would have to pray harder for God to cure his Kisney damage (I am unsure what this meant-pray harder) but this is whereby he explained to me his story.

The next morning he went to the hosptial in England where he was scheduled for cancer surgery. Upon entering the hospital, he asked the doctors to re-examine him to see if he still had prostate cancer; the doctors replied ”this is ridiculous, of course you still have cancer...” After strongly insisting, the doctor’s re-examined him and they were astounded to discover his cancer was truely gone.


More true stories about my former spiritual father soon.

Louise Tilly at the New School for Social Research in Manhattan, failed me in my required class ”historiography” doing all she could to forbid me in writing my paper on the subject of Russian royalty, God and/or Vladyko Theodore (she herself was a self proclaimed feminine Marxist).

She could NEVER have herself, found these amazing historical facts on the Russian Romanov family from other primary sources than myself really becuse most have died. You’d think she’d be interested in the subject; not so!

I am one of the only American women ever possessing historical primary resources on the Romanov family from Vladyo Theodore and also from my lady friend whose father was for a short time before he was assasinated, the King of Serbia.

Liljana Piper is a former Serbian Duchess and her and her family used to live at the Holy Name Abbey in West Milford for about 25 years. They recently returned to Serbia after becomming American citizens.

I am very sad because Liljana has cancer now and is very ill. I always wanted to see her again; she is like a mother to me. I don’t have funds to visit her in Beograd.

She married Serbia’s most famous football / soccer player, Branko Piper who is in the World ALmanac for managing to keep the same soccer position for the longest time of anyone in the world.

I met a man whose nickname was, ”LaAstBaron” when I used to go on the Prodigy chatrooms.

He was a Hungarian Baron; last in his line of sucession he informed me. He now works in diplomatic capacity at a Hungarian Embassy in the Consul section. I have not spoken with him in many years.

He came to visit with me when I lived in Newfoundland NJ off Route 23 Nrth by Oak Ridge Road. He was engaged to a Serbian woman at the time.

He came to visit for the purpose of my introducing him to my freind Liljana Piper (her maiden name was Voyonivoc-I cannot spell it correctly now please forgive me).

They wanted to meet and discuss the ousting of the monarchy in their respective countries and also chat about the rich history shared between their two respective countries (Hungary and Yugoslavia).

It was like Camelot.

You should have been there when the Hungarian Baron knelt before Liljana, kissing her hand and both of them after so many years of tensions between Hungary and Yugoslavia resolved so many differences and became friends.

I am hnoored to have been a part of that meeting.

’Last Baron’ I meant. Sorry I mispelled.

He lived in Staten Island; this is a fe verifiable verity.
Posted by lpcyusa at 10:57 AM 0 comments
Re: Civil Rights Case# 02-99-2132

Office for Civil Rights & US Dept. of Education (District II / NY)
Mr. John Carroll
75 Park Place
New York, NY 10007

Jill L Starr
PO BOX 635
Newfoundland NJ 07435

Re: Civil Rights Case# 02-99-2132

Dear Mr. Carroll,
I am writing you concerning a matter of grave and immanent importance regarding my Appeal on Civil Rights Case #02-99-2132.
As you may be aware, I was granted an extension of time by the New School for Social Research to satisfy the incomplete grade in the course entitled Political Development taught by Professor Adamantia Pollis which I was forced to accept an incomplete grade in last Spring 1999. The extension granted to me gives me until mid-May 2000 to complete the paper which is the principle requirement for this course.

In order to complete this paper I need to consult with Professor Pollis, and also have access to the New School University Library which has been denied me in spite of repeated requests to allow me access to this and other necessary New School facilities.
It may be of further interest to note, that I am currently on a medical leave of absence from the University that I currency attend. Hence, I wish to seek a further extension of the deadline for completion of this course.

I have attempted to contact all of the administrators of the New School for Social Research involved in my Civil Rights Case# 02-99-2132 including Nancy Shealy (Political Science Dept. Secretary) who has repeatedly hung up on my telephone calls on all occasions to the school which have all been without success.
Furthermore, the New School administration had assured me that I would be granted access to necessary library and other facilities if I contacted the New School VP of Student Affairs Ms. Linda Reimer who would arrange for security guards to accompany me.
Needless to say this has caused me to suffer grave emotional consequences. VP Linda Reimer has persistantly refused for the last six months to honor this and other New School agreements concerning the aforementioned.

If the New School persists in this refusal to honor its own agreements, I think it is only fair that they should immediately grant me a monetary refund for the tuition I paid for Professor Pollis’s Political Development course ASAP.
I can supply strong evidence to support these assertions and I would appreciate your earliest attention to this matter. Thanking you in advance for your gracious help. I remain

Respectfully Yours,

Miss Jill Louise Starr
(973) 208-8372
Go TO MY WEB SITE TOI SEE TEH SCANNED EVIDENCE!
http://members.tripod.com/Thaissa/first.htm
Posted by lpcyusa at 10:17 AM 0 comments
Dear Provost of NEW SCHOOL FOR SOCIAL RESEARCH JONATHON FANTON[ NEW YORK CITY 212-229-5777]:

This is my original letter pleading to complete my education to pay off my student loans; I defaulted having my social security garnished now


Dear Provost of NEW SCHOOL FOR SOCIAL RESEARCH JONATHON FANTON[ NEW YORK CITY 212...]:

I am requesting a formal hearing by the New School University Wide Committee on Harassment. I have filed numerous and grave discriminatory harassment complaints against certain New School Graduate Faculty Officials as well as professors. My complaints have not been appropriately dealt with or resolved in either an honest or a moral manner by New School Graduate Faculty members as far as I am concerned. Furthermore, Eliza Nichols, the very first person against whom I filed an initial complaint against for her emotionally abusive behavior directed at me on March 30th, 1999, (as Dean McIntyre is well aware of), is in a DIRECT “conflict of interest” when it comes to dealing with any other complaints that I may have filed. She should neither be meddling nor partaking in my legal New School complaint mediation process, unless, it concerns the complaint that I filed against her. I am a State of NJ Certified Court Mediator so I familiar with these issues. Eliza presumably is one of

the few persons who Dean McIntyre seems to be dealing with (see the CC on his

letters, which bar me from future studies at the New School, dated May 29 1999).

I allege that certain New School Graduate Faculty Department Officials have been impeding, and with malicious intent, my:

graduating from the New School for Social Research which was supposed to take place this past week.
Registering for any class given at the New School Universityregardless of either a) the division, or b) even if I have the cold cash to pay for classes by myself. This is explicit and direct, Discriminatory Harassment! These are VERY serious Civil Right violations that have been committed directly against me by many New School Graduate Faculty Members and I want them seriously investigated. I further allege:
Professor Louise Tilly gave me a bad grade of a C- last semester
Fall 1998) due to her discriminating against me for my strong belief in

God. I allege Professor Tilly clearly disdains my Orthodox

Christian Faith. Her assistant professor was an atheist man from Iran. I have both Atheist and Human Secularist friends. I never encountered any

such a problems prior either in or out of university settings before I took,

Professor Tilly’s historiography class last semester. All one needs to do is to view a few of the copy written works written by Charles and Louise Tilly to clearly see their seemingly clear distaste for religion in general. In one such work that I ironically read for another class there were quotes from Mr. and Mrs. Tilly, on religion. It went something like this: ‘religion must be destroyed because it is the opiate of the people and also it impedes Marxist-Communist Revolutions.’ I also allege that Professor Tilly does not have the historical background and/or knowledge necessary for grading pre-Revolutionary Theological Orthodox Christian Historical sources to enable her to grade my historiography paper on Empress Aleksandra from the, Fall 1998 semester.

I am a member of the Int’l Romanov Society. The Orthodox Christian Church is prepared to support my case against Ms. Tilly. Various Church members and even Archbishop have seen Professor Tilly’s comments on my paper. They also have seen the manner in which Professor Tilly revised my Orthodox Christian Theological

sources which were in quotes in my paper. The Church will be my witness

against Ms. Tilly at this hearing that I am now requesting! To me, what

Professor Tilly has done even worse than pure plagiarism! I have a copy

of the paper here. Almost all her corrections are either “crossing directly

through my religious references to God/religion”, and/or revising the meaning of my theological sources entirely. This is not acceptable behavior from a New School Professor. As for Professor Tilly’s own complaints about the “formatting” of the paper. Ms.Tilly readily admits to having lost my original paper. I therefore had to give her a rough draft of an old paper from last semester. Luckily I had left after I had a hard disk crash left year.

Therefore is Professor Tilly is displeased with my formatting, it is her own fault since she admits to printing this rough draft from an e-mail attachment herself! I have proof here. I also have a note here from Ms. Louise Tilly indicating that she would be happy to allow me to “revise” the paper. However, the Orthodox Christian Church and I both agree that the substance of the paper should remain as is. It is important for Historians to understand whereby Orthodox Christians understand and conduct “historiography.” I took the Cultural approach to historiography that President of the American Historical Association took, Lynn Hunt, in the book that I read for Ms. Tilly’s class entitled, “Telling the Truth about History.” (I have a copy Professor Tilly’s syllabus)

As for my more serious complaint against Professor Plotke. On

April 22,1999 Professor Plotke and I had a meeting to discuss my future

at the New School. David Plotke has barred my registering for: Fall 1999,

summer 1999 classes, and also any future studies at the New School. I still

am told by Dean McIntyre that Jill Starr is absolutely forbidden to so

much as take one class now or in the future at the New School for Social

Research, even, if I personally pay for a class with my own cash!

The New School has ads in both NYC Newspapers, and also Subways in NYC for students. Hence, I find it exceedingly discriminatory that Jill Starr is being told that she has not has human right to register for summer classes or any other classes at the New School University.

Back to David Plotke now: On April 22, 1999 at approximately 5-5:30pm, Professor David Plotke called me into his office and told me that I was no longer a student at the New School! I had no prior oral or written warning before David Plotke told me that I was no longer a New School student in his very emotionally abusive manner! Furthermore, I, Jill Starr, never once broke any New School rule or regulation as Dean McIntyre’s May 29th 1999 letter confirms. In this letter May 29, 1999 (I will send you the copies of it) Dean McIntyre states that he and the New School Graduate Faculty all “met”, and collectively decided to strangle and condemn to “death”, Jill Starr’s future studies at the New School for Social Research. Also, Professor and Chair of Political Science David Plokte used a “non-verbal” fighting word. I allege Mr. David Plotke came towards me in his office with a small camping knife/file on that same date and time Moreover, David Plotke on that date tried to “BRIBE ME” into accepting his so called “deal”. In David Plotke’s “deal”, he tried to verbally coerce me to accept this following “bribe” (I am truthful and it was a BRIBE!): David Plotke’s “bribery story” goes like this: ‘I David Plotke am willing to offer you (Jill Starr), a deal/BRIBE… since you are no longer welcomed to take classes at the New School....you can accept that your future studies and any hopes for entering into the Ph.D. program are through…and Jill, if you agree to not cause me any problems (like filing complaints against David Plotke he meant to say).and you (Me) take this bribe nicely, then I, David Plotke, will read over your MA Thesis and allow you to one day graduate.’ I REFUSED TO ACCEPT DAVID’S BRIBERY! He got angry and told me to get out of his office. I went directly to the Office of Student Affairs and then I filed a formal complaint in my own hand writing (I have a copy here and it will be mailed to you certified next Tuesday after Labor Day). David Plotke is unsure as to whether my voice activated “mike was on” at the time since David also said basically, ‘Either, ‘Jill Starr accepts my deal and she

does not register for Fall l999 classes at the New School OR, she never

Graduates at all.” This is illegal behavior that David Plotke took

part in, never mind it being 100% underhanded and also unethical!

Now let me explain some of my complaint against Eliza Nicholas: Eliza Nicholas is woman whom I have a clear open and shut case against! I will prove to the world if necessary that on March 30 1999 when I met with Eliza, she was only acting as David Plotke’s, “hatchet woman” (David did not want to do the toss Jill Starr out of the New School “dirty work himself, obviously we know why. So Eliza Nicholas attempted to verbally abuse me into, and in the process of such abuse, Eliza proceeded to clearly “lie” to me (a student at the New School at the time), about New School student regulations which is a VERY, serious offence. (I am sure that you all would agree). Eliza Nicholas on March 30 1999 told me that I had no “choice”. She told me that Jill Starr MUST, take an, “indefinite leave of absence from the New School in the Fall 1999 semester.” I refused to do this! I STILL REFUSE TO DO IT!

My doctor thinks that my attending the New School is the best thingfor helping my emotional well being (minus any abusive discriminatory

harassment from any New School Officials)! Now Eliza told me that after I took this “indefinite leave of absence” in the Fall of 1999, that “you (Jill) cannot come back to the New School as a student ‘Jill IS EVALUATED BY NEW SCHOOL PSCCHIATRISTS!” Eliza also told me,’YOU MUST CHANGE YOU MEDICATIONS JILL— BEFORE YOU RETURN TO THE NEW SCHOOL!’ My doctor called Professor Adamantia Pollis about this incident and I am sure that Addie will fill you all in on the discourse between herself, and my doctor about the Eliza incident!’ My doctor fully is against this inhumane treatment directed against me by New School Professors and Officials! I have become exceedingly depressed with suicidal feeling (and increased anxiety) because of the manner in which the New School has treated my complaints! This has impaired most of my daily functions, including writing my paper this Summer for Addie Pollis! My doctor says it is absolutely absurd that Eliza demand from me (she has no authority to tell me that I am no longer a student! And as far as David Plotke goes, David can only bar me from future studies WITH THE PROVOST’S Permission (see page 63 student handbook) And this is a power that only the New School, PROVOST has that David Plotke took into his own hands by DISMISSING ME, A STUDENT ON THE SPOT on April 22, 1999! Prof. Plotke took matters into his own hands (the law into his own hands it seems when he in an extremely criminal manner to told me, Jill Starr, that I should leave the school 4-ever. Eliza also demanded that I take an immediate leave of beginning this Fall 1999. BUIT NOW: Dean McIntyre and Eliza (see letters to come via certified mail), that Jill Starr am, thrown out of the the New School Completely! This is criminal behavior and nothing more! Even my doctor states that the Fall 1999 semester is almost half a year away! She thought that I need time off this summer perhaps! I get it anyway it seems!

Then we have the grave matter of Eliza Nicholas VIOLATING MY FEDERAL HUMAN RIGHTS (US LAW)! She violated the patient - client federal confidentiality law when Eliza Nicolas, after I told her that in NO MANNER WOULD I ALLOW HER TO CALL MY DOCTOR WITHOUT MY WRITTEN CONSENT, she did it anyway! She called Dr. Charlotte Piuck and without my legal written consent to attempt to get my doctor to tell her, that “I was dangerous”. I allege that she committed this illegal and mindless Action only for the purpose of Eliza 1) trying to assist David Plotke throw me out of the New School in an emotionally abusive manner, and 2) to protect her own job because I also accused her of violating my “CIVIL RIGHTS”!

This is entirely inappropriate behavior for New School Graduate Faculty
Members to engage in! Then I have Dean McIntyre’s letters (this is what this is a response to). I allege that Linda Reimer lied in those letter as did Dean McIntyre. Either this, or, they do not have proper information
or memories. Also there is the grave issue of Nancy Shealy e-mailing me to inform that “David will be away until August 1999 so not to come to meet with him on April 22 1999.”! I complained against Nancy Shealy also
(I have copies!)Since Addie Pollis e-mailed me (I have copies), saying that she will have no choice but to” support the New School” in their Criminally Abusive Civil Right Violations against me..—–

—>By the way Addie, I hope that you change you mind now after you know the FULL TRUTH!) ..........I now allege, that Professor Pollis has rejected at least FOUR, 10-15 page term papers I submitted to her this semester as rough drafts for my completing her course requirement for the , Politics of Development. It is quite clear at this point (I have seen this before many a time over) that New School Officials are impeding my completing Addie Pollis’a class. How? They are pressuring Addie Pollis I allege and am ready to prove, not to allow me to “pass her class”. Illegal, yes, but it happens all the time!

Furthermore, Addie Pollis is a professor I have always greatly admired. Admantia Pollis and I never prior, had any problems about her “understanding my topics/papers.” In fact, Addie Pollis IS, the ONLY Professor that I can still “somewhat respect” at the New School now. From my first semester at the New School, Addie Pollis came to me and asked me “WHEREFORE MY WRITING WAS SO FRAGMENTED”. (I have an attention deficit disorder, which worsens with stress)! Addie and only Anthony Pereira have attempted to accommodate my disability! David Plotke “said it is not up for discussion on April 22 1999 when he through me out of the New School!” Gee, thanks David (for nothing that is)!

In fact Addie Pollis, she has up to now always assisted me because she knows that Jill Starr has been on permanent disability for about 9 years (SOCIAL SECURITY). Anthony Pereira was another very good professor.
I took his class Military State and Society (A PRO-SEMINAR DAVID!) in my Fall 1997 semester at the New School. I was told by BOTH 1) David Plotke, and 2) JIM NOLT, that later this class could perhaps be used as a pro-seminar.
There are the other 3 credits David Plotke you claim that impede my graduation! Most every one of the University Officials whom I have filed official complaints against for they’re abusive discriminatory harassment against me should not, and this goes double for the case of Ms. Eliza Nichols who has a direct conflict of interest in my case since I have filed a formal complaint against her. Professor David Plotke suspended me from the New School and also any future studies on April 22, 1999 in an emotionally and threatening manner with no prior notice! (SEE PAGE 63 STUDENT HANDBOOK ON THE PROVOST HOLDING THATEXECUTIVE POWER PROF. PLOTKE. Any questions? Good. Please start investigations leading to a hearing in reference to my complaints right away. As for Ms. Louise Tilly who contrary to what Linda Reimer stated in her letter (see cc: to Dean McIntyre dated May 29 1999) I never met with Miss Tilly to resolve my “complaint informally.” Lies and more *amned lies! I never had a 2.2 GPA and when I came to the New School my GPA was 3.57 from previous school! Not as Dean McIntyre says it is now, a 2.2!

I not only allege that Ms. Tilly discriminated against me on 1) religiousgrounds,2)-I petition for a grade change, and 3) I still allege she has not the knowledge to grade a paper using pre-Revolutionary Russia Theological sources! I want a formal hearing about my complaints against: David, Louise, Shealy, Nicholas, and now I am bordering on suing the school in general!

Respectfully Submitted,

Jill L Starr

PS: I WANT TO REGISTER FOR CLASSES ON TUESDAY THIS WEEK.

Post your own opinion for: DAVID PLOTKE AND DEAN MCINTYRE v. US DEPT OF EDUCA

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Discrimination


Professor Louise Tilly Formerly at the New School for Social Research in Manhattan Discriminated Against my Religious Convictions Refusing to Let Me Write a Historiography Paper on Tsarina Alexandra of Russia

Critic: THAISSA 0 - F-
Posted: 3/3/2000 11:13:47 AM 39 Hits

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Overview:
CIVIL RIGHTS CASE# 02-99-2132

That is right folks! Not only has David Plotke thrown me, Jill Starr, a permantanly disbaled student out oft he New School’s Graduate faculty Dept. of Political Science without any prior written / or oral notice on April 22 1999 for harboring “Anti-NATO views” HE DID IT AT KNIFEPOINT!! He had his swiss army knife pointed right at me as he tried to bribe me into leaving the NSSR! When I told him that “I do not accept bribery” he came at me with his pointed KNIFE”!

Louise Tilly failed me in a required class (c-) and PLotke said that my religious discrimination was “NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION”! Plotke also told me “YOU PERMANANT DISBAILITIES ARE NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION”! And I am both permanantly physically and emotionally discabled, although I managed to obtain both nationaland int’l honors before PLOTKE TOSSED ME OUT OF SCHOOL!

COME SEE AND READ ALL ABOUT MY LANDMARK CIVIL RIGHTS CASE NOW—>http://members.tripod.com/Thaissa/first.htm

Press interviews are welcomed!
JLS

Post your own opinion for: LOUISE TILLY DISCRINATES AGAINST

Louise Tilly failed me on a historiography paper on Russian Empress Alexandra which was later published by the Romanov Soiiety.


================================================================

My Recommendation Letter from the Former Serbian Unity Congress President who assisted me in applying to Fairleigh Dickinson University Political Science Dept (after being thrown out & discriminated against by the New School in NYC in 1999 because of my anti-NATO political views-see my web site for proof at thaissa.tripod.com/first.htm) in Hackensack New Jersey (Eventually FDU also dismissed me from the political science program - illegally and not in accordance with their policies although they will say otherwise etc..)again owing both to 1) My Anti-NATO Views); and 2) Also owing to many of the FDU political science such as Rapheledes being former graduates themselves from The New School for Social Research as well as being New School collaborators and liberal democrats and remember the New School in NYC in 1999 (during the Kosovo Crisis) threw me out originally only three weeks before my anticipated graduation in 1999 on April 12th (same day Milosevic's Presidential Palace was bombed in the Former Yugoslavia in NYC (I had already ordered my cap & gown) . Let us remember that Liberal Senator John Kerry is now the active New School Provost whom is one of many there completly ignoring my doctors asking the school to comply with my doctor's rrequest to accomodate my disabilities and to extend my time for submitting my term papers. My American with Disabilities Act andFederal Civil Rights Case conducted under the umbrella arm of the United States Dept.of Educationin NYC regarding thje NSSR's Disability Discrimination against me slipped my case under the rug although I had many important and key witnesses themselves famous historians and professor's owing to Hillary Clinton being in Bed with the Teacher's Union in NYC Before She Became NY Senator. She lectured at that Liberal Democratic Institution at the World Policy Institute on the 4th floor of the New School and disliked my anti-NATO views at that time and then on April 12th 1999 Profesor David PLotke (Former Political Science Chair at the New School) at the time, only three weeks prior to my anticipated M.A. graduation date from the New School summoned unexpectedly into his office stating directly to me "Jill, you are not the type of person we want to see graduating with a New School Degree (owing to your nati-NATO views of the KOsovo Crisis) He then proceeded to pull out a camping knife and point it at me (I left crying).

Thererafter, I tried to apply to both Seton Hall and later FDU in Hackensack to repeat my MA Degre. When eventually I was accepted into FDU in Hackensack, (I have witnesses as proof of what I am about to state....their Chair's of both school's whom gave me entrance interviews later confided to my close friend (they were unaware of this at that time) and admitted to my close friend colleague Arnold Stark (Famous HIstorian and Professor in NJ) that the New School called both universities ahead of my entrance interviews telling both institutions not to accept me into their M.A> Programs slandering and liabling me saying to the entrance interviewers' at that time ,

"I was dangerous and pulled a knife at David Plotke which was the other way around ( he pulled one on me now claiming everywhere I applied to redo my M studies) that "Not to accept Jill Starr into any graduate program because she is both emotionally disturbed and also dangerous for pullling a knife at him).

Dr Brudner at FDU (Number 2 in charge of the political science and also Professor Stark were both present during my first entrance FDU interview at that time Dr. Brudner did accept me into the FDU political science program but explicitly admitted she was aprehensive because prior to my arrival, she had received a telephone call from the New School for Social Research in NYC whom told not to accept me because I was "dangerous" using my disbaility against me while further slandering me and my repuation as a scholar globally.

She did then allow me in the FDU Political Science Department stating at that time in from of Professor STark that I made for what she considered "An interesting candidate."

Notwithstanding again one class before my anticipation again I was dismissed from the program again (mysteriously). Although they claim it is owed to my grades slipping the truth is and I have witnesses it was genuinely owing to my again being discriminated against by the liberal democratic professors and those teaching at FDU's Madison Campus at the Siberian business institute one class prior to my anticipated graduation from there as well.

After I was told I being dismissed from the program. Dr. Fatami (Chair of the political science dept at FDU then ) conceeded to me privately that I had been given poor grades by certain professors purposely because they were former New SChool graduates themselves and again I never had the opportunity to graduate with my MA Degree I had well earned by then already having published two books and including Columbia University's Online Journal of Int'l Affairs...

Now the US Government is suing me for over $100,000- in student loans. Both as sad as it is ironic no?

I have both the papers and witnesses that willingly will attest to this fact.
Comments
====================================================================
-Daniel Kolak Philosophy Professor at WPUNJ in Wayne NJ Promoted Croatian Genocide (Proof)Daniel Kolak Philosophy Professor at WPUNJ in Wayne NJ Promoted Croatian Genocide (Proof)

I took my required course in Philosophy by Professor Daniel Kolak.

I used to attend his weekly philosophy meetings that lasted until the wee hours of the morning. They were held where the old langauge lab used to be on the WPUNJ College campus in Wayne NJ.

Throughout the meeting the students that attended were NEO NAZI Skinheads. They and Professor Kolak and Croatian language magazines and right in front of me spoke openly about promoting genocide against certain populations and especially against Jews in the former Yugoslavia (I was very scared).

I have vague memories of Mr Kolak saying he was from Croatia but I cannot 100% be certain. I thought he told me he was from there because I remember asking because I was shocked at the topic of Dan Kolak promoting anti Jewish behavior with students of his that lived down the street from me in Bloomingdale, NJ at that time that were minors.

The kids told me they were only 17 years old (Frehsman).

Dan Kolak works on making movies with Speilberg (the Jewish Movie man) I AM SHOCKED BUT THIS IS ALL TRUE@

I will take a polygraph test.
======================================================================

I NOW ASK DAVID PLOTKE WHY I AM NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO OBTAIN MY MASTER’S DEGREE. I ASK THE SAME OF FDU IN HACKENSACK NJ AND ALSO OF SETON HALL.

+ The Indian National Project: Failures & Successes ...
+ JILL STARR DEMANDS IMMEDIATE MONETARY SETTLEME...

Jill Starr
I grew up traveling the world with my parents at age 7. I remember being on the island of Java in 1970/71 going swimming in the pool at Hotel InterContinentel surrounded by armed soldiers; and, and flying over Vietnam and my father pointing out "look Jill we are flying over Vietnam now..." with my Mom. The interesting thing was no commercial airlines flew over Vietnam unti. about one decade ago and certainly not in the 1970s. Sports: Water polo, Soccer Recreation: Partying, Travel Tags: reading, travel, children, swimming, music, college, writing, environment, new jersey, philosophy, culture, sociology, new york, ecology, china, peace, theatre, america, social justice, theology, war, human rights, endangered species, indonesia, russia, romania, political science, united nations, ideology, news media, war crimes, fairness, preventive diplomacy, crimes against humanity, serbia, kosovo, montenegro, edcuation, west milford, bloomingdale, mediation techniques James Bond type films.

View my complete profile

http://picasaweb.google.com/lpcyusa/JillStarrSEmergencyInternationalHumanRightsAlerts#

lpcyusa said...

#I don't think that Radovan Karadzic or Ratko Mladic are war criminals at all. I invite everyone to view some of the evidence in my possession about it at my blog site. I think it is easily proven that the CIA and Richard Holbrook are the Balkan War culprits.
Respectfully Yours,

Jill Starr

##

#What It’s Like to Chill with the Most Ruthless Men in the World
Ratko Mladic and Radovan Karadzic:
Confessions of a Female War Crimes Investigator


Retrospectively, it was all so simple, natural and matter of fact being on a boat restaurant in Belgrade, sitting with, laughing, drinking a two hundred bottle of wine and chatting about war and peace while Ratko Mladic held my hand. Mladic, a man considered the world’s most ruthless war criminal since Adolf Hitler, still at large and currently having a five million dollar bounty on his head for genocide by the international community. Yet there I was with my two best friends at the time, a former Serbian diplomat, his wife, and Ratko Mladic just chilling. There was no security, nothing you’d ordinarily expect in such circumstances. Referring to himself merely as, Sharko; this is the story of it all came about.

It all began as former United States President Bill Clinton spearheaded NATO’s war against Serbia, Montenegro and Slobodan Milosevic (March 1999). Thirty-five years old, conducting graduate study work at the New School for Social Research in New York City in political science, I planned graduating spring 1999 with an area study emphasis in international law and human rights. I was naïve then, still believing strongly in democratic liberal concepts such as freedom of academic thought. Hence, I never anticipated my political views would impede either my graduation or completing my master’s thesis work on whether NATO member states committed gross violations of customarily accepted international criminal law in launching military aggression against Serbia and Montenegro owing to not acquiring United Nations Security Counsel approval prior.

Then as hit with the identical smart bomb dropped on Milosevic’s presidential palace in Serbia the night of April 22nd 1999, political science chairperson then at the New School, Professor David Plotke, summoned me into his office before class that evening and dismissed me from the master’s program at the New School owing to what he considered my possessing unsavory political science opinions.


Only having to complete two more classes to graduate, I always thought my future in political sciences as wide open with innumerous possibilities; unfortunately this proved untrue. Plotke told me in no uncertain terms that I was not the type of person the New School wanted walking around with a degree stating the New School’s prestigious name on it.

Ironically, the New School was an institution I attended only owing to its’ placing great pride and emphasis on allowing students complete academic freedom of thought without dictating what is and what is not politically correct to discuss. Yet surprisingly, dismissal from the program and blow to my graduate work should not been completely unexpected since the semester immediately prior, the school refused allowing me to conduct my graduate thesis work on the subject of whether the NATO and Bill Clinton committed war crimes against the former Yugoslavia during the Kosovo war (1999) and internally suggested I write about infringement of Muslim human rights in France. I suppose with the likes of Hillary Clinton and Tony Blair hanging about the fourth floor of the school at the renown World Policy Institute in 1999, I should have expected the university would not take kindly to student‘s speaking out critically against Bill Clinton and the Kosovo war (1999) he went down in history for advocating. Then again, in 1999 I still believed in the school’s core ideals of academic freedom, especially since I was paying no less than one thousand United States dollars a credit to attend. My civil rights lawsuit against the college is another story in and of itself not deserving extended amounts of space here, except what I already mentioned.

Dismissal from graduate school left me in a complete state of scholarly anomie seeking empathy and solace from my few friends and confidants at the time including many diplomats I studied with at the New School for several years. The list included but was not limited to ambassadors from Iran, Oman and a newly appointed First Secretary of the Bosnian Mission to the United Nations in New York, Darko Trifunovic.

Noteworthy of mentioning, both the ambassadors from Iran and Oman both confided in me their own extreme dissatisfactions and the scholarly problems they themselves currently encountered at the New School for Social Research. On the last day attending the school, both aforementioned men explicitly complained to me the school was holding them back from graduating owing to their own so-called extremely unsavory political viewpoints. In particular the Iranian ambassador, Amir, was writing his master’s thesis on the Iranian contra affair and the man from Oman told me for years he was being held back from graduating because Greek Professor Addie Pollis strongly disdained his Islamic religious and cultural views insofar as human rights and multiple marriage partners by Muslim sultans in his country of origin. It was May (1999).

Riddled with uncertainty about my future scholarly status, I immediately applied for graduate study at Farleigh Dickinson University in New Jersey where I studied an additional two years before encountering similar problems with the graduate school faculty there. Ironically it was only FDU professors whom formerly studied themselves at the New School still in touch with the faculty there, who were later responsible for my having to leave the graduate program at FDU in early 2002.

Between the time of my dismissal from the New School and my dismissal from FDU the fall (2002), I stayed in touch with many scholars and other politically active persons sharing similar anti-war views as myself regarding NATO’s 1999 Kosovo war including: Professor Barry Lituchy (NYC), Ramsey Clark’s people at the International Action Center, and a couple of new acquaintances I’ve chanced meet online in Serbian political activist forums. One of those people was, Darko Trifunovic.




Darko and I were e-mailing each other regularly by early spring (1999) at which time he informed me that he became the newly appointed First Secretary of the Bosnian Mission to the United Nations in New York City and wondered whether I would pick him up at JFK airport when he arrives in a few weeks; I acceded. Darko arrived first, his very beautiful wife, Bojana, arrived as expected about one month later after he was settled.

Darko greatly impressed me at the time. Being a former political advisor to the to the former female President of the Republic of Srpska in Bosnia, he had a degree in international law, diplomatic immunity, was a writer, handsome, and fun to just hang-out with and work. The three of us became extremely close friends and confidants. I even became voted in as the executive director of the Law Projects Center Yugoslavia in New York . The Law Projects Center was a United Nations accredited NGO and offshoot of the Yugoslav Coalition to Establish and international criminal court. Darko and some political people originally founded the organization in Belgrade Serbia prior his arrival in New York City in diplomatic capacity. I worked fervently legally registering the organization in New Jersey as a legally filed non-profit successfully. The Law Projects Center and its activities demanded Darko, his wife and I often stayed the night over each others’ apartments often; many times working days at a time with very little sleep.

From winter (1999) until fall (2002), Darko, his wife and I worked daily at the Bosnian Mission to the United Nations in New York City co-authoring two books: 1) The Bosnian Model of Al-Qaeda Terrorism and; 2) The Srebrenica Massacre. As a young student of war and peace in the former Yugoslavia, I was in scholarly heaven accessing the United Nations to work with Darko daily. This enabled my meeting many of the most fascinating people in the world. I vividly remember Senator Bill Richardson at the time giving nightly press interviews on television about meeting with OPEC members states, “setting them straight about lowering oil prices in 2000.” Yet when I’d chit-chat with the Iranian ambassador in the city before class asking him about it he would say to me something to the effect as,” We at OPEC are so angry about former colonialism by England and America, OPEC will continually attempt bringing both the United States and England to their financial knees on energy issues…And by the way Jill, Russia does not in any manner intend to halt weapon sales to Iran.”

In fact Amir and I, notwithstanding our theological differences, got alone well. We’d often sit together before class acceding on a great many matters. In particular I remember us sitting one night and looking me square in the eye stating, “You know Jill, I will never believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” I replied, “And I Amir will never convert to Islam.” Now that we got that out of the way, we both smiled at one another getting down to discussing real issues.

The Bosnian mission to the United Nations in New York City in 2001 was an extremely interesting place. Reflecting the rotating ethnic presidency existing in Bosnia unto present, Mission employees were comprised of people of completely bipolar ethnic, theological and politically ideological viewpoints. The Head Ambassador of the Mission post 9-11 was then combating rumors of his soon becoming persona non grata in the United States for allegedly giving Osama Bin Laden a visa to travel through Bosnia illegally when previously stationed in Italy in 1993. There were also rumors he confessed to the United States Department of State of running international arms trades in connection with Al-Qaeda. The number two man at the Bosnian mission, the First Ambassador was Serbian, Orthodox Christian and a doctor of medicine by university degree. The First Secretary of the Mission was my friend Darko, the Consulate department was headed by an ethnic Muslim lady from Bosnia, and there was an ethnic Croatian woman floating around with other various diplomats being of Roman Catholic Croatian descent.

My time at the Mission was primarily spent fixing Darko’s laptop computer which became daily infected with computer viruses he continually claimed emanated from other employees at the Mission who were allegedly trying to sabotage him because of his ethnic Serbian background. I vividly recall the constant bickering between all the mission employees; always accusing each other of committing war crimes and giving each other computer viruses making it virtually impossible for any of them to get along. The Croatian diplomat usually stayed to herself with her office door shut while the others present usually just listened to Led Zeppelin rock music on their personal CD-ROM players. They told me repeatedly they had nothing else to do with their time at the United Nations beyond an occasional meeting except for listening to music and playing computer games.
Sad and ironic was the few things I noticed all the Bosnian mission employees agreeing upon was their undying love for the rock band, Led Zeppelin.

A year had come and gone while I totally immersed myself into political inquiry as to just who was guilty of committing war crimes in the former Yugoslavia. My favorite subjects of inquiry included: NATO, Kosovo & Metohia, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and persons of interest such as Mladic and Hacim Thaci (Albanian Leader of the Kosovo Liberation Army). It was not enough for my merely taking in nightly news reports from CNN and other mainstream American media; to conduct an investigation for inquiry of social fact, I needed to go to Serbia and investigate for myself.

Only after seeing firsthand the goings on in the Balkans could I make a discriminate determination of guilty parties insofar as genocide there. After my fateful month long trip to Serbia and Montenegro in the fall 2002 I later concluded all warring parties involved had blood on their hands (Croats, Serbs, Muslims and the NATO); there are no innocents. But in 2001, neither my finances nor busy schedule allowed such a trip. Moreover, not speaking fluent Serbian coupled with the anti-American sentiment existing in Serbia then listed on the United States Department of State travel warning website caused going to there an unfeasible option. Hence, my life and studies went on as usual.

Several seasons went by and now it was spring 2001. Darko and his wife Bojana had time off which they spent visiting friends and family in Serbia for about two weeks. Because of this Darko was unable to function in full diplomatic capacity. In spring 2001 there was a preparatory commission meeting of plenipotentiaries to establish an international criminal court at the United Nations in New York City. Topics of the meeting included but were not limited to defining interstate acts of aggression, court financing etc.. Darko asked me if I would sit in for him at the meeting taking as many notes possible owing to the Law Projects Center possessing United Nations accreditation as a NGO (non governmental organization) with full observer status at the United Nations; I acceded.


Darko faxed me all necessary paperwork enabling my application attendance at this crucial meeting; I filled out the necessary forms and faxed them to the appropriate United Nations office for approval. It was an extremely exciting time for me. My close friend and colleague, Arnold Stark (History professor and Columbian University PhD) drove me into Manhattan walking me through the United Nations main entrance and security the day of attendance. Professor Stark himself was an old foreign service man from way back in the day and he told me I never looked as professionally sharp as I did on that day; I wore a navy blue pin striped suit. I must admit, I looked good.

Only post attending that day did I truly understand the total lapse of security existing then at the United Nations in New York City. I say this owing to the social fact that the Law Projects Center was indeed registered as an United nations accredited NGO it is true. However, closed meetings of this sort meant attendance was strictly limited to head ambassadors of valid United Nations member state missions and non governmental organizations possessing observer status were not allowed.

Unto present, I’ve yet understood whereby I gained entrance into this privy closed meeting consisting of only United Nations ambassadors, but I did. Walking to the basement floor of the United Nations building that day, I merely wore a visitors badge given to me at the front desk in no manner indicating that I was an ambassador of a United Nations mission; least of all the Bosnia mission as required for entrance. Totally unaware I didn’t possess necessary credentials to enter the meeting, I walked confidently towards the entrance door and past the guard stationed outside it. The guard never bothering to examine the type of badge I wore around my neck simply said “good day Madame” and urged me into the meeting; it was just about time to begin.

I immediately sensed something wrong once through the door past the guard. First, I was uncertain where to sit. Everyone else had a sign in front of their seat stating their country of origin. The Israeli ambassador sat in front of the Israel sign, the Spanish lady sat in front of the seat indicating she represented, Spain etc..

I looked fervently around the room seeing no seats indicating seats for United Nations observers anywhere. The last thing I wanted to do was to embarrass myself by taking the seat of an important ambassador; I noticed a couple of men seeming from some African state grabbing some meeting paperwork nearby so I inquired of them. I told them I was a newbie and inquired where to sit and what I should do. With heavy African accents one of them said, “just grab a bunch of these papers, sit there and look like you are busy,” so I did. In fact, I grabbed as many extra copies as I could without looking conspicuous when noticing another peculiarity.

The meeting papers indicated they were for restricted for the eyes of state mission heads’ only (chief ambassadors of countries) and allowing other persons and/or United Nations employees to view them was a punishable offense. Uncertain what to do, and with the meeting beginning, I merely sat there stunned. My seat and the one the African gentleman next to me took seemed extras because they neglected having any indication regarding country origin in front of them on the table; I felt safe.

As totally immersed and interesting as I found the topics, the African ambassador seated found boring. I say this owing to noticing during the entire meeting he was merely doodling nonsensical pictures on some legal pad. I think that no one took more notes that day than me. I was especially interested in the interstate bickering about financing the international criminal court should and when it came about. Spain was particularly forceful in vocalizing its opinion that the countries giving the most monetary contributions to the court itself ought have more power over both its staffing and its innocent and guilty verdicts as well as judges appointed. My suspicions’ equally shared by scholars such as Noam Chomsky and former attorney general, Ramsey Clark were now fully justifiably confirmed. The court itself was a great travesty of justice and I was actually witnessing quarrels between countries insofar as controlling the courts judges and verdicts based on financial contributions rather than on law and true international justice.



The most shocking point of the meeting for me was when the Israeli ambassador admitted openly to the other attendees that Israel was indifferent to war crimes, crimes against humanity and would in no manner support any international structure limiting its’ ability for practicing war and peace against any other state and/or party it considered a threat to its national interest. The ambassador representing the United States that day strongly and equally explicitly backed the Israeli position making clear American attendance was more for information gathering purposes and show than true concern for international law, world peace and social justice. When the meeting ended I slipped quickly out the front entrance of the United Nations; notes and papers in hand; I would read them in detail later that evening.

It must have amazed Darko upon returning from Serbia I actually gained entrance to the ICC preparatory closed meeting because within a week he invited me to the city to attend another important meeting at the United Nations comprised of diplomats from some very selective and prestigious NATO member states. I don’t recall the date but by his return fully I understood the definition of a closed meeting. Upon approaching the meeting door I became at once cognizant the meeting stated “closed meeting,” on the door. I did my best to point this fact out to Darko who told me to go in with him anyway; we did. Darko obviously thought because I gained entrance to the ICC meeting I ought not have in his absence, perhaps if I were with him, he covertly could gain access this closed NATO meeting; no dice. Upon entering the room, immediately some important looking man called him over and diplomatically informed him that “Serbia was not invited.” Darko pointed to me explaining that he was with the American lady but he was asked politely to leave; I followed him out the door embarrassed.

The following year was mundane. Filled with activities like shuttling back and forth to FDU for graduate school, fund raising for the Law Projects Center and co-authoring two book with Darko. The fateful day of 9/11 and the attacks by Al-Qaeda on the World Trade Center Towers in New York City changed my venue forever. Post 9/11 Darko became a man on a personal mission seemingly unrelated to the Bosnian mission itself.
He told me it was the utmost importance to publicize the alleged fact that the head ambassador of the Bosnian mission was in his estimation involved with Al-Qaeda. Darko had a seemingly ton of secret documentary evidence emanating from the ministry of internal affairs in Belgrade and Bosnia seeming true bolstering his allegations in my eyes then.

Asking me to fervently work on editing a book on which topic was meant for exposing the head ambassador of the Bosnian mission at that time; I acceded. The publication was later published by the Repubika Srpska information agency in Bosnia. The Serbian government in the Republika Srpska in Bosnia then was seriously pressing Darko for a fast publication so we stayed up many nights over his apartment in Forest Hills, New York working to do so. The book was entitled, ”The Bosnia Model of Al-Qaeda Terrorism. It can probably still be found and read online. Last time I checked it was posted on the website: http://www.analyst-network.com/profile.php?user_id=240.

Darko always told me I possessed full rights to this and other publications we worked on together. Although I edited and co-authoring the Al-Qaeda work, a few years back I noticed Darko removed my name on the inner front cover page as editor replacing it with the name of a Serbian editor. When questioned about it Darko told me he kept my name from being published because of the death threats and dangers to my life that he himself encountered because of its publication. I do vividly remember Darko receiving a great many death threats and threats towards his wife at the time, Bojana, so it is possible he was telling me the truth.

Even prior completing our work on the Al-Qaeda book together Darko was obsessed with manifesting the Bosnian Chief ambassador at the time as a terrorist. At the time I had no reason to doubt Darko’s word and assisted him in rabidly writing an open letter to all the United Nations member state missions exposing him as such. I surmise this is when Darko’s job at the United Nations as First Secretary of the Bosnian mission became jeopardized.

Today I surmise Darko’s employment at the United Nations genuinely became compromised owing not only to the inter-ethnic conflicts existing between him and the head ambassador then, a proud Muslim man, but also owing to the fact he forged birth certificates to acquire his position in the first place later becoming a social fact from the interior ministry in Bosnia. It was an emotional shock when Darko informed me a by summer 2001 that he lost his job and he and Bojana had to immediately return to Belgrade to work out the matter in court. This was also a great emotional blow to me also owing to the fact that I always possessed a crush on Darko and he knew it. This was a social fact I never publicly admitted previously to writing this book. I once even asked Darko if he wanted to have an affair with me but he declined stating he would never be unfaithful to his beautiful wife, Bojana. This left me in an extreme morally uncomfortable position because Bojana was my best friend. I continually told myself being attracted to her husband Darko was a non-option. Working so closely with him on an almost daily basis however made my attraction to him difficult to overcome.

I was also engaged to Professor Arnold Stark at the time and wore the ten thousand diamond ring he bought me on my finger. Arnold became increasingly jealous of Darko in time and eventually forbid me to work with him altogether. Notwithstanding, I continued working with Darko against Arnold’s wishes. This coupled with my trip to Serbia and Montenegro in 2002 eventually led to my breakup with Professor Stark and after almost an entire decade, my relationship with Arnold never fully recovered.

Darko tried keeping his job in diplomatic capacity at he UN as long as possible but the bipolar friction and hate existing between himself and the chief ambassador at the mission proved too much. The chief ambassador in contact with the Bosnian government at the time in Sarajevo eventually had Darko dismissed as first secretary of the mission. To the best of my recollection Darko was no longer receiving a monthly salary from Sarajevo by spring or summer 2002 (approximately).

I often came visiting Darko and Bojana’s apartment in Manhattan then situated on a side street within walking distance from the UN to help them out financially by buying them inexpensive dinners and such in Manhattan and chauffeuring them around (they did not own a car for the majority of their stay in the States).

In July 2002 as I remember the three of us spent many memorable moments going to the beaches outside the city and just spending time talking etc.. At the time and owing to my being in graduate school at FDU, I had plenty of extra money to burn owing my taking the maximum GSL student loans totaling about twenty thousand dollars a semester. Then one day that summer Darko informed me he and Bojana were only awaiting the Bosnian government to wire them a sum of five thousand dollars to pay off their American bills, last month rent and they would make a hasty exit back to Belgrade permanently. I was emotionally crushed.

Desperate not to lose contact with Darko because of my personal feelings towards him, I told him my summer classes at FDU were about to end August 2002 and although the fall semester was about to begin, I wanted to visit him in Serbia as soon as possible. Soon for me meant as soon as I received a check from the United States government for the total of that semesters’ student loan money in the amount of about ten thousand dollars.

Darko, hesitant at first soon gave in to my constant petitions to visit him. The day I brought them both to JFK to return to Serbia permanently, Bojana whispered something in Darko’s ear as we hugged saying our goodbyes all three of trying to hold back tears of parting and Darko looking me in the eye said something to the effect, “Jill, don’t worry as soon as you can afford it call me and we’ll arrange your visit.” Darko never could stand to see me cry which on many occasion I did owing to the loss of my two children and other personal challenges in my life. They turned and boarded their plane to Belgrade as I drove back to New Jersey. Driving home I felt an odd combination of extreme sadness at the loss of my two best friends mixed with the cheerful prospect I would shortly be boarding a plane myself destined for Serbia and Montenegro by mid August 2002 when my student loan check arrived. Upon arriving home I immediately began making all necessary arrangements for my forthcoming trip.

The day following Darko ‘s departure, I bought a great many prepaid phone cards for the purpose of calling him owing to both my missing him and also my primarily wanting to began making all necessary arrangements facilitating my forthcoming visit from JFK to Beograd. I had countless questions such as: how much money will I need, how will I obtain a VISA being an American citizen with all the US State Department warnings against US citizenry traveling to the region, etc., etc., etc.. I had already obtained a valid United States passport many years ago which I always carried with me. I’ve always held the strong opinion that having a valid passport with you at all times is just a good idea. It enables one the necessary freedom to go to the airport and catch a plane going anywhere at anytime.

Darko told me that I need not worry about all the complicated VISA requirements listed on Serbian government website required of other Americans that he would handle everything. I was told merely to bring with me about five thousand United States dollars in cash spending money and it was a done deal. I went to buy some new suitcases and clothes for my trip in Wayne, New Jersey during the first two weeks in August 2002 in preparation. Packing was always a problem for me as Darko can attest to owing to my medically diagnosed attention deficit disorder. I had a difficult time deciding what to bring, so I tried to bring everything I thought I needed. The day of my departure my suitcases weighed way over the weight limit restrictions indicated by the airline.

Getting to JFK for departure in mid August 2002 proved to be an almost insurmountable task in and of itself owing to my heavy luggage and everyone I asked to drop me at the airport that day had strongly held views against my going. Arnold Stark declined to bring me owing to his personal jealousies insofar as Darko and everyone else had one or another excuse rooted in the anti-American sentiment in Serbia at that time and danger involved.
Undeterred, I finally convinced Archbishop John LoBue, my priest and confessor at the Holy Name Orthodox Christian Church in West Milford, New Jersey to take me as far as the Port Authority in Manhattan; from there I took a bus to JFK managing myself.

Post 9/11, JFK was supposedly safe beyond reproach insofar as security; this proved untrue. I had not traveled outside America in many years so I was unfamiliar with the new travel restrictions on such items as nail scissors etc., being illegal to bring onboard flights and carried several very sharp ones right passed JFK security inspection inside my purse on board out of my own ignorance of new flight rules. It was not until I arrived on my stopover in Paris, France that I was boarding onto a JAT (Yugoslav Air Travel) flight for Belgrade that the security officer of JAT told me that he had to confiscate the aforementioned items owing to new security precautions implemented post 9/11.

I informed him upon boarding my initial flight at JFK in New York, the security guards at the gate allowed me to board my flight to Paris carrying them in my purse. The JAT security employee merely shook his head in amazement mentioning something insofar as his seriously questioning American security in general stating that Jugosalv Air Travel obviously took airline and passenger security much more seriously.

I loved flying JAT! Not only was I completely satisfied the flight from Paris to Belgrade was many times more secure since JAT searched boarding passengers more thoroughly than JFK, the hospitality, food and drink was excellent. I say this owing to my being a well seasoned traveler having previously visited places such as Indonesia, Thailand and Hong Kong, etc.. It was extremely laid back on the flight. People moved around switching seats and chatting with good friends and the food was the best! My favorite Serbian food and drink were served and all airline employees shoed me the highest level of hospitality. I was extremely pleased with the professionalism and service on JAT I later began an online blog about it on Yahoo360.



Upon my flight arriving in Beograd, all passengers left the plane in the usual manner except Serbian citizens were shuffled through customs quickly merely showing their passport. All others including myself were asked to relinquish their passports and told to wait an unspecified amount of time in a holding area at the airport. An airport security officer went around confiscating our passports afterward leaving us merely standing there not knowing what to expect next. No other announcements were made; I did the only thing possible I relinquished my passport to the Serbian custom official along with the other western Europeans and/or Americans (if there were any) which I surmised like myself were attempting to enter Serbia from countries that were NATO allies in the Kosovo war against Slobodan Milosevic in 1999. There must have been about twenty persons with me just waiting.

All types of nagging thoughts plagued me such as “perhaps my friends were correct that I ought not have taken this trip…was it really too dangerous to travel to Serbia with all the anti-American sentiment and what would happen if Serbian customs decided I was an American spy, kept my passport and I ended in some unknown jail and/or murdered….who would find me…what could I do about it etc., etc., etc..”

It seemed nearly an hour passed; me and the others were still standing there waiting. I didn’t want to seem scared or overly curious by asking either Serbian custom officials or anyone else waiting with me anything as to not cause unnecessary attention to myself. I also kept checking my watch wondering if Darko knew I was here waiting. I had hoped with his government connections he would at least inquire about my arrival since he told me he would pick me up. I drew comfort from the fact Darko was always very punctual picking up and bringing himself and others to airports. On numerous occasions I gave him and others rides to and from them. These and other thoughts plagued me when suddenly I heard a voice on the loud speaker call my name, Jill Starr, asking me to go to a customs area to claim my passport. I was the first person called so I don’t know what happened to the others standing there still waiting. I hurriedly went to obtain my passport and was told that I cleared; the guard pointed the direction for me to go claim my luggage. You have no idea what a relief that was!

I took in my new surroundings pleased that I made it into the country successfully. As a young child my father took me with him traveling the world when he was an active nuclear engineering consultant for Chas T Main, USAID and the IMF. I had been in Indonesia during the turmoil in East Timor so I was used to being in war zones surrounded by soldiers with guns. I was presently older, but still I found such travel extremely exciting more than dangerous and looked forward to enjoying the rest of my vacation with Darko and Bojana.

Making it to the baggage claim area successfully I was relieved seeing Darko standing their waiting for me. I was not fluent in Serbian and didn‘t want to publicize it by asking people questions in English manifesting I was American. I hurried to him giving him a large hug.

I was so glad to see Darko. I noticed upon my arrival at the Belgrade airport that there were many female police officers equipped with guns wearing short mini skirts and extremely high heels. I asked Darko how they apprehended criminals in such high heels and he replied smirking that they don’t have to run, they merely shot those not halting in the back and that stopped them.

Like a dream come true, there I was in Beograd Serbia against all odds and complaints from my friends. Darko helped me get my luggage to his friend’s vehicle telling me we could talk about everything I had to say later because we had to hurry. Darko‘s friend, a German man living in Serbia for years and an important military employee of the Serbian government in a grayish older large SUV vehicle with what seemed a special license plate was impatiently waiting at the front gate of the airport for us. Darko’s friend did not speak fluent English but he did speak fluent German and Serbian. Darko told him to help lift my luggage into the trunk in Serbian and he did. Darko always liked to brag and as usual he introduced me to his friend giving me the details of his being an important man in the Serbian military etc.. We went straight from the Beograd airport to the home of Bojana’s family in the suburbs of Belgrade and all became reacquainted.

Bojana and I hugged; she introduced me to her family (father, mother and brother who was a high school student in Beograd).
Afterward, Darko showed me the room upstairs where I would sleep which was actually Bojana’s room also informing me of our three week itinerary; he had it all planned out. Darko told me we would all spend the night over Bojana’s house, the next day sleep at his apartment outside Beograd and later explained the next day we would stop at his father’s family’s house for dinner and leave from there making our way into Montenegro for a ten day vacation staying at his friend’s resort on Budva’s seaside coast. Along the way Darko told me he would give me the best tour I could ask for and he did. He showed me military installations and one of my favorite stops was the NATO bombed Chinese embassy which I stood in front of only several yards from.

My night at Bojana’s residence was wonderful. I was never showed as much love and hospitality as I did from her family. Although it was late in the evening (about 11pm Serbian time) when we arrived, Bojana’s mother, a wonderful woman, treated me as her own daughter. She insisted that Darko, Bojana and I enjoy what seemed a 10 course home cooked meal. She was still cooking while she served us a variety of cooked steaks, vegetables and pastries. And like many Italian families she insisted I tried and ate everything. To top the night off before bed Bojana and her father performed an accordion duet live in the kitchen for me. Apparently, Bojana and her father were professional accordion players and Bojana explained that her father’s employment consisted of playing nightly in a local bar. Thereafter, we went to bed with full stomachs.

The next morning we all enjoyed an equally exquisite breakfast. Bojana’s family had livestock in the backyard and her mother cooked us a fresh eggs and steak for breakfast like never before experienced. We said our parting goodbyes and left for Darko’s apartment in the hills of Beograd. We brought my suitcases in and upon entering I noticed there were lots of stray dogs around the apartment entrance. One in particular was very cute and Darko explained that the various residents fed it because it was so adorable. I found it interesting that so many old men were just hanging about the entrance to the apartment building drinking and just sitting there with seemingly nothing to do. They remained there throughout my entire trip.

Even when Ratko Mladic came to see me on my final day in Serbia in full military regalia giving me a parting gift (a book he inscribed to me entitled Serbija) while Darko took pictures of Mladic with his arm around me, the men remained there merely looking like old bums. Retrospectively, I wonder if they weren’t some watchmen and/or guards. Unto this day I always wondered what Darko did with those photos.

I was surprised what a very large apartment Darko owned. He showed me into his guest room and I unpacked my suitcases in just enough time to inform me I was to consolidate all my truly necessary items for Montenegro into one small bag that would reasonably fit into his trunk in the morning because he needed enough room for his and Bojana’s luggage also. He laughed at all the things I brought with me to Beograd telling me that I had no idea how to pack.

By the time I was done with that task Darko told me it was time to go meet some friends at a local café for coffee. It was late summer and the outside café’s in Beograd were the best ! We met up with a few friends in some restaurant in Beograd; there was about five of us sitting there just chatting and drinking coffee when I noticed an older gentleman sitting a few seats down with feathered salt and pepper colored hair not saying much except for an occasional laugh and nod at us. I wondered wherefore Darko a man about thirty would associate with such an older person, as for me being several years older than Darko, I thought to myself, what a cute guy. Then upon closer inspection, I realized it was doctor Radovan Karadzic. I knew he was a psychiatrist. By no means was this to be our last meeting. Throughout the time I spent in Serbia Darko met with Karadzic on many occasions in Beograd. The meetings were usually brief; only to exchange oral information and/or a few papers with Darko and whisper something or other in Darko‘s ear. He looks as the news media portrays him dressed in his gray wrinkled suit and tie and salt and pepper colored hair. He was a perfect gentleman all times I met him with Darko. After finishing our coffee, Darko said we ought leave and get a good nights rest because we had to leave early the next day for Montenegro.



The next morning we all got into Darko’s blue Audi (car) and left for his Father’s house. I remember arguing with Darko about wanting to bring lots of luggage with me and he replied I didn’t need all that stuff and I could only bring one normal sized bag with me and I had to leave the rest of my things at his apartment; I did. On the way to his father’s, Darko made a few important stops for the purpose of giving me the grand tour. We only stopped briefly at some military installations; we didn’t get out of the car. We drove up to the gates and Darko pointed out, “look Jill, this is an important military facility.” Darko always sarcastically smirked as he pointed out these places to me. The only place we got out was in front of the bombed out Chinese embassy in Beograd. There were Serbian military officers in front of the embassy. I was amazed owing to I always had thought bombed out buildings were totally demolished. But standing in front of the Chinese embassy that was bombed by the NATO in 1999 taught me the definition of a “smart bomb.”


Only the portion of the building hosting the embassy employees on the upper level of the building itself was demolished and in particular the window where the Chinese embassy officials worked. I could see in the window and I even got a sad glimpse of the Victorian styled chair sitting there empty in the bombed out window. I wondered who used to sit there and if they were dead or alive. No other parts of the building was seriously damaged. There were even flowers and trees still growing untouched in front of the building. I strongly believe that NATO knew exactly what they aimed at when they bombed the building.

I brought a digital camera with me on my trip but upon returning to the United States, all the film Darko claimed to snap for me was returned by my local film developer as blank. I wondered if Darko told me the truth about snapping photos for me at all. Throughout my trip he insisted on taking all the photos I wanted claiming I take poor pictures. It since crossed my mind he may have removed the film from my camera prior my departing Serbia so I could not take it back with me. One thing I am sure of is both Darko and Bojana refused having any photos taken of them throughout my entire stay.

After leaving the scene at the Chinese embassy, we made our way to the home of Darko’s father driving through a beautiful park not dissimilar to Central Park in Manhattan along the way. I can’t be certain what park it was because I didn’t know the geographical area; we soon arrived at our destination. Darko’s father lived in the most incredibly beautiful green hills in an area of Serbia existing somewhere between Beograd and Montenegro. Immediately upon entering and meeting his father, stepmother and grandmother who recently passed away, I felt part of the family. Although his family did not speak English, Darko and Bojana translated for me.

Darko’s grandmother was an extraordinarily warm and wise woman in whose presence I felt comfortable and happy the entire time. Before dinner there was the customary libation of grappa (a Serbian hard liquor of incredible potency). If only I could find grappa here in America. After another dinner that would give Manhattan’s top chefs a run for their money, Darko brought me upstairs into a guest room to take a nap.

I told him I was not tired but he insisted I nap saying we would be driving all night before reaching Montenegro and I need my rest. I must have slept an hour before he awakened me to say our parting goodbyes and begin our journey. I was extremely excited; Darko promised me a three week Adriatic holiday allowing me swimming privileges at every beach from Hercegovni to an area he said was only ten meters from Kosovo’s border. We couldn’t go into Kosovo Darko said because it was too dangerous. I knew Darko had been shot several times and almost killed in Kosovo previously so I didn’t push the issue. As a former lifeguard and avid swimmer, I couldn‘t wait for my vacation to start and Darko delivered it to me as promised.

The onset of our journey began at sunset; still adjusting to the time zone differential I dozed off in Darko’s backseat; for how long I’m uncertain. I dozed on and off until sunrise when we reached the Montenegrin border. I mean, there wasn’t much to see driving in the dark cover of night. The wider well lit highway we initially set out upon gradually narrowed as the highway lights became fewer. Eventually there were no highway lights at all. My body continuously shifted from one side of Darko’s backseat to the other making sleep difficult.
It was obvious the road we traversed was analogous to Pacific Coast Highway in California driving through Big Sur. It was mountainous, dangerously ridden with hairpin turns and no guardrails. In Montenegro, inexperienced travelers could almost mistake the scenery for Big Sur with the beautiful blue Adriatic sea hugging the bottoms of the cliffs we not so cautiously traveled. I asked Darko to slow down because he was driving like speed racer. He replied not to worry explaining he could drive these roads blindfolded he knew them well. I thought to myself, better safe than sorry buddy. It is a good thing I had some prescription Xanax with me, I popped one, maybe two just to relax while simultaneously trying to hide this act from Darko since he hated drugs in general. He especially hated my taking the prescription medications my doctor gave me saying I didn’t need them, they were addicting and poison. He also strongly disdained cigarettes; Bojana smoked covertly.

The sun was just rising when Darko awakened me excitedly pointing out the tunnel we were driving through. I think he said at the other end we’d be entering Montenegro. Driving to the Budva Riviera in Montenegro we drove through some similar tunnels; the scenery was unbelievably breathtaking. There is no other place in the world I’d rather be than in Budva Montenegro and I recommend everyone vacation there. We were making our way to a seaside resort a friend of Darko owned. Still driving like speed racer around the hairpin turns and mountainous cliffs compromising the road, we finally arrived at our destination safely. I admit Darko is an excellent driver; his driving is reminiscent of agent 007 in James Bond movies.

Because of the Kosovo war, there was not one functional ATM in either in Serbia and Montenegro. To be safe I split the five thousand dollars we had between Darko and I. I held onto half and he the other. One of my favorite stories I tell people of my trip is how I swam with my money throughout the trip; it made me feel secure always keeping some cash on me at all times; even when I was swimming a quarter mile out in the Adriatic sea. Darko told me not to; I did anyway.



Owing to that, the cash I held was often wet. One particular time we went to a bank in Montenegro. The banks there are so remarkably careful of counterfeiting, they refused exchanging my United States dollars for Euros because my money was wet; the three of us returned to the hotel using my blow dryer to evaporate the dollar bills until dried. The three of us henceforth joked about this saying we laundered the money.

Upon arriving at the resort, Darko introduced me to his friend and we worked out the financial gratuities for our stay. We paid him eight hundred United States dollars for ten days; meals included. Unlike hotels in America, meals meant an extremely large home cooked breakfast consisting of large varieties of meat, coffee and juice. Lunch and dinner consisted of many course meals where main dishes consisted of either freshly caught seafood or meat. Our accommodation consisted of two medium sized rooms with separate entrances; one for myself and another for Darko and Bojana. To reach the beach we only needed to walk across the street and down a small path; one could see Italy at the other end of the horizon on a clear day. I was ecstatic loving to swim. Since Bojana didn’t swim, Darko couldn’t always accompany me to the beach so I‘d just walk to it myself for periodic swims throughout the day; August was a very hot month. Of any country I’ve visited, Serbia and Montenegro wins my top prize for fun, food, beauty and hospitality. Everyone is friendly, warm, the atmosphere is relaxed and laid back and most persons speak some English owing to children learning English as a second language in school at a young age. Unfortunately, American school children do not grow up learning another language other than native English which leaves them I feel at an intellectual disadvantage.

Each day Darko took us to another beach for a day enjoying food, drink, music, perhaps some shopping and primarily, swimming. As long as I could swim for hours each day I was happy. By the time nighttime rolled in all of us were so tired each day we usually had dinner and retired early, except for one night. This just happened to be the one night of my entire vacation I was overly exhausted wanting to retire early at any cost. Inversely, this was the one evening both Darko and Bojana incredibly excited informed me to take a shower, dress and get ready for a big surprise.


When I asked Darko what this surprise was and its great importance being I was so tired; he merely insisted I go get ready for it. Darko was always very bossy in my estimation constantly telling us when to sleep, awakening Bojana and I up early, limiting our time before breakfast for dressing, blow drying our hair etc. which the two of us always complained about privately to each other. I always accepted this as part of his personality but this night it annoyed me to no end; I simply wanted sleep, surprise or not. As usual I gave into to Darko’s demands by hurrying to my room, showering, changing, and preparing myself for a night out. If you’re a woman, you understand when you have a crush on someone as I did Darko, you usually give into his demands easily; so I did.

Upon changing, Dark and Bojana were waving me to hurry to the car; exhausted I got in and slammed the door. Less than ten minutes up the pitch black road Darko pulled the car over and we got out. Darko and Bojana said, “Hurry Jill look down there.” At the bottom of the cliffs was the most beautiful city of lights I’ve ever seen. Darko said proudly, “this is Budva Jill, that‘s where we are going.” It was many times more beautiful that Paris or Manhattan at night and situated in a valley about a mile and a half wide forcing the Montenegrin peninsula farther out. It was a remarkably amazing sight, Budva itself being lit up with a wide variety of bright lights surrounded by an aura of pitch black. By this time Bojana started complaining to Darko to move his car in more because someone may come around the sharp turn in the darkness sideswiping it. Darko never worried much about illegal parking or his speed limit owing to whenever getting pulled over, he just made manifest to the officer his huge governmental badge and they let him go; the badge was at least three times larger than the usual American police officer badge and was gold in color.

Darko became annoyed with Bojana’s complaints so we returned to the car, got in and descended about five minutes down the treacherously dark road into Budva and parked. I couldn’t believe it! It was like a dream, We walked down around Budva, Darko pointing out everything.

We stopped to have a drink at one of the many outdoor bar/café’s and listened to the live entertainment while we sipped our drinks. Then I went to buy another bathing suit at a small shop when Darko told me to follow him and Bojana into the most amazing bar I’ve ever seen, anywhere in the world. The bar itself was actually a small island rocky island; to reach it one had to walk underground maybe a little less than one quarter mile. Upon entering the bar it had many levels; all outside surrounded by the roaring nighttime surf of the sea and live entertainment. I saw a few people illegally swimming and asked Darko if I could swim there too. He informed me the swimming was closed for the evening. We ordered drinks and sat there chilling for a while. On the walk back Darko showed me all the gambling casinos along the Riviera. It looked like anyone could get whatever they wanted in Budva if they had the correct amount of money with them. Montenegro was to me akin to a luxurious playground for the ultra rich, famous as well as infamous. We then walked back via way of the tunnel, stopped at a small outdoor restaurant all ordering a type of delicious pancake we enjoyed by dipping it in chocolate syrup and drove back to the hotel to get some rest.

The next day Darko took merely us to another gorgeous beach. It was reminiscent of Greece. The water was sapphire blue, clear and warm. The beach itself was not large, but completely hidden by huge rocky cliffs. The three of us took a kind of small craft about a quarter of a mile out into the Adriatic; Darko and I jumped in for a swim. Bojana was partially nude sunbathing at the time on the boat and since she was unable to swim, Darko teased her by stealing her clothes, pretending not to give them back to her. She immediately became upset demanding Darko return her clothes; Darko soon complied with her demands. Thereafter, we ended the day with lunch and drinks. The following day was one of my vacation high points. We visited the Ostrog monastery.

Driving to the Ostrog monastery was long, hot and boring. It lied somewhere deep beyond the Montenegrin coastline inland. We drove a long windy road without even so much as a store on it. After a couple of hours, Darko stopped for lunch at the only restaurant I noticed the entire trip. You’d think it would be small being situated in the middle of what I considered, “nowhere.” However, this was not the case.

There was actually a long line and tons of people there having lunch. I could only imagine like us they were on their way to visit Ostrog. The restaurant itself was classy and I can only liken it to seeing a luxurious restaurant in the middle of the Mohave desert. While I was visiting Ostrog monastery in Montenegro, Darko introduced me to a Serbian priest asking me if I wanted confession. The man looked almost verbatim to Karadzic in his monks getup. I mean the way the latest news photos of Karadzic in his monk getup looks. I only became cognizant of this recently since the photos of him since his arrest have been made publicly manifest. In particular I remember the priest’s large darker curl on the top of this priest’s head like in the recent Karadzic photos; I wondered who would make their monks hair like that. This priest blessed me and told Darko in Serbian he could not hear my confession owing to his not understanding English well. He gave me a gift, a book about the monastery itself which I gave to Archbishop John LoBue in West Milford (my priest).

While visiting Ostrog, we venerated the holy relics leaving an offering of either food or money at the door leading to the holy relics; I can’t remember which now. Leaving, we looked around the gift shop, had coffee at the small Ostrog monastery café and Darko gave me a tour where the monks sleep and shower. Then we made the long drive back to the hotel. We had the usual dinner at which time Bojana was overcome with a terrible toothache. I told her I’d pay for the filling tomorrow; Darko knew a dentist 10 meter from Kosovo‘s border. Tomorrow we‘d swim there and have Bojana‘s tooth looked at. The town we went to the next day possessed an ethnic Albanian majority and organized crime was everywhere.

Before retiring for the evening I went for a small walk around the corner from the hotel to buy some snacks; there was a small store there. I never felt endangered at any time by anyone. During my stay in Montenegro I walked to the store myself almost daily buying drinks and other items I could enjoy privately in my room at night. I never noticed previously to that evening’s walk just how many persons actually were vacationing from Western Europe in Budva the fall 2002 like me.


After promenading to the store, upon returning to the hotel, a German man sitting outside the hotel and speaking in broken English introduced himself. When I told him that I was from New Jersey in the United States he became extremely interested and warmly said he is pleased I was able to enjoy the area. I replied, “I was tired and needed to retire.” Saying he understood he returned to his card game.

We had the usual dinner at which time Bojana was overcome with a terrible toothache. I told her I’d pay for the filling tomorrow; Darko knew a dentist ten meters from Kosovo‘s border. Tomorrow we‘d swim there and have Bojana‘s tooth looked at. The town we went to the next day possessed an ethnic Albanian majority and organized crime was everywhere.

We awoke early as to get Bojana to the dentist. This is actually where the Montenegrin bank had refused to exchange our money for Euros. Managing cash was difficult in Serbia and Montenegro owing to that the national currency in Serbia was still dinars and in Montenegro it was Euros. Most businessman preferred either Euros or American dollars, but one never knew which.

Upon parking, Darko led the way down the busy street towards the dentist who I remember being an ethnic Albanian man. Apparently, they visited this dentist previously and he was extremely friendly. Not at any time did any ethnic Albanians cause me, Darko or Bojana any problems because I was American and they were Serb. The dentist was going to take a while and since the bank would not exchange our American dollars for Euros, we could buy neither lunch nor anything else and we all possessed a ravenous hunger for lunch.

Ignoring Darko’s warnings not to go wondering myself, I left the dentist office under the pretense of going for a walk while Bojana had her dental work completed. Before Darko could catch me I was gone. I walked up the main street about one mile and began asking people in English where I could exchange United States currency for Euros. I came upon a well dressed ethnic Albanian high school student, a girl speaking perfect English who told me to walk up the street about another half mile and when I see men selling the cigarettes outside on a bridge table, ask them to do the deed; I did.

The girl asked me about America saying her greatest wish was to study in New York City one day. When I told her about my experience at the New School for Social Research, being dismissed for my anti NATO views on the Kosovo war she replied to me, “maybe she was wrong about wanting to study in Manhattan.”

I made my way to the table with about five ethnic Albanian men hanging about selling cigarettes and asked them in English if they could exchange money for me; they did. They were definitely organized crime. They took my wet cash, examined the bills, one man walked into an apartment building with my cash while I merely waited. He didn‘t rob me and returned with my Euros. Surprisingly, I found everyone in both Serbia and Montenegro very honorable in their business dealings; even if those dealings are organized crime.

Upon receiving my Euros from the men, I walked away back to see if Bojana was through with the dentist; she was. I excitedly told Darko that I had successfully managed to exchange American dollars for Euros thinking he’d be pleased with me; he wasn’t. Darko was always very protective of me. Instead of commending me he immediately got very angry; scolding me he said exchanging money illegally in the streets of Montenegro was both illegal and dangerous. You can’t change the past so I diplomatically apologized and Darko soon forgot his anger I lieu of the fact that now we all could have lunch. Afterward, Darko brought us to a beautiful beach nearby. The majority of the sunbathers were ethnic Albanian and again no one harassed us based on our ethnicity. I tried pushing Darko into driving into Kosovo but he flatly refused. I found it interesting that the international news at this time was reporting that there were hundreds of thousands of homeless ethnic Albanians being ethnically cleansed to Albania, I did not see one ethnic Albanian or Roma homeless on the streets anywhere. All seemed normal only ten meters from the Kosovo border. After a day of swimming and partially nude sunbathing, we returned to the hotel.

Insofar as sequence of events, at this junction in time it was the last few days I spent in Montenegro; it’s difficult now to remember the exact timeline of events. In other words, I remember visiting Old Town and Podgorica also in Montenegro but uncertain of which locations we visited first. During the last two days, Darko took me one day to Old Town in Montenegro for dinner; there we greatly enjoyed an expensive seafood meal after which we walked around. Darko got a parking ticket that night in Old Town and greatly complained about its five dollar fee; for some, five dollars is equal to an entire week pay in Serbia. I think I offered him the five dollars for the ticket feeling guilty because it was only for my benefit he parked there at all. Darko wanted to show me Old Town; he already knew what the beautiful cobble stone streets looked like.

We also went to the Montenegrin capital, Podgorica. I really don’t remember much of Podgorica except for walking around the streets one night. Since we didn’t swim there so it wasn’t a high point for me. When our ten day stay in Montenegro was finished we all packed and returned the way we came in Darko’s car. The day before we left, Darko’s car required maintenance. We didn’t have enough cash on hand left to pay for the needed repairs so I called Arnold Stark, my fiancée in the states, asking him to please wire us five hundred dollars cash to Montenegro; he did. This is a fact that Arnold himself can verify being that he alone possesses the charge card receipt for wiring us the money through Western Union to a town not far from Budva. With Darko’s car repairs complete, we returned home for Beograd.

On the way back to Beograd we made two more important stops. One was Hercegovni where we met up with Darko’s cousin, a soon to be freshman college student and her friends. We had a couple of drinks, snapped some photos and Darko and I went for a quick swim in the sea. When it began to rain, we called it a day. The other stop was somewhere on the way back, where I have no idea. We pulled up to a large lake. Darko pulled his car onto a large ferry boat. There were some people on the ferry, but primarily soldiers from the Serbian military. Reaching the other side we drove around but I can’t remember much.

Returning on the ferry, we piled into Darko’s car and appeared at his apartment several hours later. We were all extremely exhausted and passed out as soon as possible in our separate rooms. Again, we walked past the same old men sitting in front of Darko’s apartment building seeming to do nothing; they waved at us.




There were only two days left of my vacation at this point; I didn’t feel like doing much of anything. I’d come down with terrible stomach symptoms that began in Budva several days prior. This was probably owing to my ignoring Darko and Bojana’s warning not to drink tap water but only bottled; a lesson I ought have learned in Indonesia as a young girl. We were all feeling tired and slightly under the weather merely wanting to recuperate. Notwithstanding, Darko, always an avid early morning riser, insisted we promenade Beograd’s renown indoor marketplace; an extremely large indoor flea market. We walked approximately an hour or two. I tried on several dresses before finally buying myself one; the type I can’t recall. Bojana bought herself Serbian brand makeup after which Darko informed us it’s time to leave.

Shopping was always boring to Darko unless it was for himself and during his stay in the United States Darko, Bojana and I hit many malls in New York and New Jersey such as Willow brook in Wayne, New Jersey. Other favorite stores we often visited were Daffy’s and Macy’s in Forest Hills, Queens, New York. I vividly remember the Republika Srpska diplomatic contact to the Hague court in the Netherlands visiting. Me, Darko, he whose name was Dan in English, along with my daughter little Jill went to Macy’s at the Willow brook Mall in Wayne NJ allowing Dan to buy some gifts for his girlfriend back in Bosnia. Afterwards, we all enjoyed a wonderful lunch at Six Brothers Diner on Route 46 not to far from Montclair State University in New Jersey.

I can’t recall whether it was prior to vacationing in Budva or after, but close to the Beograd marketplace we visited the apartment of a Serbian basketball player and his disc jockey roommate (the walls of the apartment were covered with music CD’s from around the world). It was a very impressive CD collection. He said he often spent time in Manhattan studying when not having to compete.

I became increasingly sad during this time owing that in another day I’d again be saying goodbye to the man I loved, Darko; perhaps leaving Serbia forever. I wanted to stay and live in Beograd permanently but I had duties to my graduate studies at FDU in Hackensack, New Jersey. Had I known the university (FDU) would be soon dismissing me from their graduate program similarly to the New School for Social Research, I would have stayed in Beograd. I always told Darko my greatest desire was to live in Serbia and/or Montenegro. He always replied, “Jill you have your children and your studies now. After your children leave and you complete your graduate degree, then you can come reside in my country.” After the New School discriminated against me and I was recently receiving poor grades at FDU from professors that had formerly studied and graduated from the New School themselves, I felt I wanted to leave America thinking strongly I would have more academic freedom in Serbia. In fact during my entire Serbian trip, I discovered that myself and others freely spoke our minds on a myriad of subjects such as politics and theology without being badgered. This was my personal experience and I know allegedly not all Serb citizenry under previous regimes enjoyed such privilege.

Upon leaving the marketplace we enjoyed lunch at Darko’s which Bojana prepared; she was an excellent cook! My favorite Serbian food is Gibanica (I think this is the correct spelling). Gibanica is an exquisite main dish comprised of Greek filo dough, beef, cheese and sometimes spinach baked in layers similarly to Italian lasagna. After lunch, I decided to walk by myself to a local store for purchasing some items. I wanted some air alone outside not wanting Darko to see me cry. As aforementioned, I became extremely sad about returning to the United States the following day. When returning to the apartment, Darko suggested I nap a while so I did. I don’t remember what time it was when Darko knocked on my door waking me up. He informed me we were heading out soon to meet up with a friend of his named, Sharko, he wanted to introduce me.

We left Darko’s apartment after dusk and about ten minutes later parked nearby a beautiful green park lined with trees along the river, somewhere in Beograd. Uncertain exactly where we were going, I allowed Darko and Bojana to lead.

Strolling down the narrow paved path a few feet wide cutting into a grassy hill, we headed directly towards a boat restaurant. Traversing the small shaky wooden bridge, we boarded. The place was empty; we were the only persons present besides one waitress. We sat as follows; Darko and Bojana sat next to each other as in American restaurant booth’s and I sat alone across vis-à-vis. The boat itself was very luxurious resembling the interior of several large boats formerly owned by the late Aristotle Onassis. I have several books on Aristotle Onassis so I have seen photos of the interior of his large boats. The waitress came over to take our order; there was no menu. We verbally told her which libation we wanted; as she walked away Sharko came in. Sharko was Ratko Mladic; he wore old faded blue jeans sagging a bit around his waist.

I wasn’t scared at all. When first shaking hands with Mr. Mladic I thought quietly, this couldn’t possibly be happening; but it in objective reality it was really happening. I’ve met many interesting people since graduating WPUNJ in New Jersey in 1997. I personally coined the term, extreme sociologist which I consider myself. I may not be rich, but achieved my scholarly goals notwithstanding either FDU or the New School for Social Research in Manhattan dismissing me from their graduate study programs. Since completing my undergraduate degree, I’ve desired to better understand our world by meeting with and talking with the world’s most controversial individuals. I believe in traveling to hidden and seemingly remote places around the world, partaking in local cultural activities for better understanding wherefore people behave as they do.

Mladic first seated himself across from me, in a separate chair the right of Darko. The waitress returned asking Mladic what he preferred to drink; he ordered expensive wine saying jokingly it was “two hundred dollars a bottle,” smiling. I was already drinking an alcoholic beverage of some sort I can’t remember along with Bojana. Darko rarely drank and sipped on something non-alcoholic. Extolling me to Mladic, Darko explicated whereby I was the only American college student standing firm on grave issues pertaining to international justice insofar, the NATO and the former Yugoslavia.


Darko finished boasting about me to Mladic after which I in an extremely forceful forthright manner explained to Mladic my political views insofar as NATO’s breaching international law by launching military aggression against the former Yugoslavia, by bombing the Chinese embassy in Beograd, and, by purposely bombing other civilian targets in Serbia and Montenegro in 1999. I have a film of when NATO bombed a newborn baby hospital unit in Beograd; disgraceful!

Mladic seemed impressed with my viewpoints on war and peace. He was very warm friendly man; very relaxed and laid back. He smiled the entirety we were chilling out just enjoying each other’s company and drink. Hanging out with Mladic was no different than chilling with my other friends back in America. I ordered another drink with Darko’s disapproval. As aforementioned, Darko strongly disdained mind altering substances, always trying to help me overcome my craving for them. Then, Mladic opened his wallet, showing me photos of his wife and children; he had a very attractive family as portrayed in his wallet sized photos. I think he missed them, perhaps empathizing to the loss I felt being estranged with my own two children for so many agonizing years.

Like General Mladic, I possess very few photos of my own children. The photos Mladic had in his wallet were obviously very old because his children were still very young in the pictures. It was evident he didn’t have any recent photos of his family in many years; I sympathized with him in this respect. After reminiscing over family photos he got up sitting next to me across from Darko and Bojana. I let him hold my hand gently massaging it. He kissed my hand, inviting me to spend the night with him in the hills of Beograd; I declined on account of my strong Orthodox Christian theological convictions. I admit Mladic having warm inviting hands and greatly enjoying the manner in which he touched me. I did consider him an attractive man; yet as aforementioned I declined his invitation. He accepted my decision although he did ask me again; again I replied the same answer. It was getting late and I was departing Serbia the following day in the afternoon. Still sipping my drink, I began urging Darko to return to America with me making a life for himself teaching as a professor at a university.

In retrospect, I now feel tremendous guilt and shame because of my advances towards Darko owing to Bojana my best friend sitting there with me vis-à-vis. Feeling a bit tipsy from drinking, Mladic continued making sexual advances towards urging me to go home with him. Darko laughed seemingly thinking Mladic’s advances towards me were cute stating, “go ahead Jill, spend the night with Sharko, it’s fine…Sharko‘s a good friend of mine…don‘t worry if you want to…I promise you’ll not miss your flight back to America tomorrow…“ I continued declining the advances and when it became obvious I wouldn’t change my mind, Darko said we had to leave because I had to finish packing for my flight and get a good nights sleep.

We all departed identically to boarding the boat restaurant, crossing the small narrow wooden bridge; Sharko/ Mladic departed with us. After exiting, Mladic and I stood in front of the boat restaurant for several minutes. I began crying because I loved Serbia not wanting to leave the next day. Mladic pulled me close to him and embracing me, he kissed both my cheeks. I kissed his cheeks also embracing him.

Darko and Bojana were walking ahead towards the car leaving me and Mladic alone. Knowing, I’d continue crying, I broke our embrace saying “goodbye.” Mladic promised to visit me the next day dressed in his full military uniform before I left Serbia. I didn’t want to part; but I did. I saw Darko and Bojana walking towards their car up the grassy hill and followed. I walked briskly catching up with them; I was exhausted and still had to finish packing back at Darko‘s apartment. Once more I turned and saw Mladic drive away in an old brown Mercedes Benz on its left front side. I was surprised to see it was scratched and slightly dented. Arriving back at Darko’s place, I completed preparations for departing the following day and fell fast asleep.

The next day I woke up around mid morning feeling depressed so I went for a walk to a local store picking up some things. Returning to Darko’s, we were standing outside his apartment discussing something when I turned seeing Mladic approaching me in full military regalia. We shook hands glad seeing each other. Of all photos I’ve seen online, Mladic never looked better than he did then.
His military uniform was clean, ironed and he wore every military metal ever earned it seemed to me. He was as honorably decorated as any of the American Joint Chief’s of Staff; even wearing his gold colored in sigma upon his green military cap. He had many gold colored metals hanging from his uniform on the left side by his chest. I was privileged to see him this way; I confess being impressed.

I was surprised to say the very least. Darko said to stand next to Mladic insisting on snapping some photos of the two of us. Mladic placed his arm around my shoulder and I his; we both smiled as Darko snapped some photos. When finished Mladic presented me with a gift. The book I posted online for you all to view, signing it to me under the alias name, Sharko thanking me for beautiful times spent together in Beograd. We embraced and he left as Darko interjected saying we had to hurry to the airport before I miss my flight.

Darko’s German friend delivered me back to Beograd airport the same manner as picked up. There was little time, my flight was actually locking the gate and about to depart without me. Darko ran up to someone important showing his governmental badge as I recall, asking them to hold the flight until I board. There was hardly time for JAT to weigh my luggage; they did however inform me it weighed over the limit allowed. Darko said there was no time to be picky about what I was bringing back to the States ; I obeyed leaving one full suitcase behind with him as to not miss my flight. Quickly helped me through customs and the gate, I tried prolonging our goodbye. Darko didn’t want seeing him cry and urged me on as the Serbian flight attendant waved me to hurry. The gate was closed up and I had to run with my carry on to board the plane. One last time I turned briefly to see Darko; he tried hiding the tears swelling in his eyes as I. I took my seat on the JAT flight back home to America. Upon reaching JFK my luggage was lost and it was delivered over the weekend to my home in Bloomingdale New Jersey. This is what it’s like to chill with the most ruthless men in the world. No biggie really.

THE END

http://sites.google.com/site/jillstarrsite/jillstarrinternationalnews
http://members.fortunecity.com/lpca1/lpc.htm

Law Projects Center Int’l [Beograd / New York]
Miss Jill Louise Starr [Director of LPC New York]
138-A Hamburg Tpk.,
Bloomingdale, N.J.
07403 U.S.A.
Lpcyu@optonline.net
To: All Interested Parties
Date: March 11th 2001
Subject: Int’l Criminal Court Preparatory Commission Meeting Report [Draft Documents on
Establishing a Permanent ICC]
March 1st – March 9th 2001
United Nations, N.Y.C.
Dear Friends and Colleagues,
In the true spirit of former United States President, Woodrow Wilson’s American Democratic
Ideals#, I hereby forward you draft documents from the recent United Nations meetings held
in New York City on establishing a permanent International Criminal Court.
I strongly believe, if all countries in our world will soon be submitting both themselves and
their citizenry to a new ICC establishment possessing exclusive international legal jurisdiction
over the entire world, that you should fully comprehend its meaning and raison d’etat.
Hence, I believe that all persons possessing a strong commitment to enhancing democracy,
internationally applying equitable social justice and peace for our perpetual human survival and for our posterity [without prejudice], should read these documents.
Respectfully Yours,
Miss Jill Louse Starr
PS: I probably have other documents I’ll have to check. Start reading these including a scanned photo image of the secret Richard Holbrook and Radovan Karadzic Immunity Agreement.


http://sites.google.com/site/jillstarrsite/

http://picasaweb.google.com/lpcyusa/

http://obamavideos.bottmer.com/i-am-a-witness-in-the-icc-war-crimes-trials-10047.barack

http://lpcyu.instablogs.com/feed

http://sites.google.com/site/jillstarrsite/what-it-s-like-to-chill-with-the-most-ruthless-men-in-the-world-ratko-mladic-and-radovan-karadzic-confessions-of-a-female-war-crimes-investigator

http://picasaweb.google.com/lpcyusa

http://www.travelpod.com/members/lpcyu

Derrick said...

Okay so as we all know the US Supreme Court is where the laws are made solid and there is no over turning them unless the issue is brought back up and they change their minds. The fact of the matter is that the US Supreme Court HAS and still states that Marriage is a "basic civil right". Not only that but the U.S. Supreme Court first applied this standard to marriage in Loving v. Virginia (1967), where it struck down a Virginia law banning interracial marriage. As Chief Justice Earl Warren wrote for the majority:
"The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men ..."

"[T]he right to marry is not properly viewed simply as a benefit or privilege that a government may establish or abolish as it sees fit, but rather constitutes a basic civil or human right of all people."-- CA Supreme Court, In Re Marriage Cases, 2008

... I guess I'll believe the people in the black robes on this one.

No you cannot sue your boyfriend because he did not marry you, but if he DENIED the RIGHT for you to get married by in a sense saying "Unless you fit my views of how you should be you will never get married." then Yes possibly you could. There is no law saying you must marry, but there is saying that you can. The fact of the matter is that homosexuals did no "redefine" marriage, Prop 22, Prop 8 and other such props did by CHANGING it to "between a man and a woman". I'm sorry but i think you have gotten your information incorrectly. The law was fine as is for homosexuals, but once heterosexuals realized that then THEY chose to change it.

"I think they should have all of the legal/financial benefits that marriage offers even. But if that's the case then heterosexual unmarried couples should also have those benefits."

Unmarried heterosexual couples do have the RIGHT to marry though, they choose not to, homosexuals on the other hand do not. You cannot claim it as anything remotely religious because of the fact that Atheists are allowed to marry and they have no religious affiliations, and because of the states involvement. As for homosexuals having the same "legal/financial benefits" this unfortunately is impossible, (Because of the rage of prices I'm going to use my state as an example) Heterosexual couples can pay a 55$ fee for their marriage while civil unions (in which do not cover homosexual relationships completely the way a heterosexual marriage does) Not only cost thousands of dollars in legal fees but are only available in a hand full of states.

" A marriage arrangement involves a husband and a wife." Okay first of all while the WORD marriage can be coined by Christians/Catholics (or whatever branch you wish to name that stems from them) the actual action is not, in fact its Pagan (just like the cross is a pagan symbol, look it up). Paganism is the OLDEST religion that is still alive today and they performed "Handfastings" which was where two people stood in frount of a priestess and they declared their vows and were then had a ribbon tied to their arms connecting them (Sound kind of familiar?).

"But there are hundreds of people who have left homosexuality."

Just as so there are hundreds that have left heterosexuality, are you saying that heterosexuality is a behavior? I'm not talking about teens but full grown men and women 30+. And while there have been some people that have been "degayed" the fact of the matter is that even the church says that they cannot change a persons desires rather only their action on the desire, and while yes a couple hundred may reject their sexual urges because of societal and family pressures and instead lead a life of celibacy, or in a closet. The church attempts this with THOUSANDS of homosexuals.

Derrick said...

"Further evidence that "sexual orientation" is not immutable. You can most certainly "mute" it"

Actually that idea is proved otherwise by not only me but the church, the action can be muted, but the actual desire and anything relating to that has nothing to do with action cannot. (c)Sexual orientation is not dependant on the act but the urge. This is agreed upon by Christians, Atheists, scientists, therapists, and others.

"I believe in a thing called Natural Law."

Actually homosexuality has been recorded in 450 species of the the 1,500 watched and observed. "Natural" meaning "in accordance with nature" actually proves you wrong, again.

Tammy said...

BUT WAIT...before you say that you are for civil unions or something equally as second-class. As a black woman, let me ask you if separate but equal has a good track record in this country...?? If civil unions are so GREAT, why didn't YOU have one instead of getting a real marriage? You know, because they are the same...(if you didn't know, I'm being sarcastic here).

AND WAIT AGAIN...before you say that a gay man can marry a woman, therefore his rights are not denied because sexual orientation can be changed...why didn't you marry a woman? Why didn't you change your sexual orientation? Because maybe you wouldn't have been single so long if you had of opened up your pool of suitors to the same-sex. You could have had a nice civil union ceremony...and not "dyyyyying" to be rid of being single! Sounds crazy, doesn't it? Well, so does your assertion that gay people can be straight if they wanted to.

2. This (gay marriage) is really JUST about the radical left wing agenda to cleanse our society of religious dogma and what they consider to be antiquated traditions like marriage.

REALLY????? I think that straight people have done a fine job all alone in destroying "traditions like marriage". I mean 50% of the population gets a divorce...and thats among people in the church!

What always strikes me as funny is that we don't stop celebrity sham marriages, you know those that last 72 hours or less, we don't have a protest against shows like "the Bachelor" and some even force girls into marriage just so they don't have a baby out of wedlock. But all of those things are OK...so long as it's one man and one woman?

Gay people have nothing to do with the deterioration of straight marriage...let's stop trying to use gay marriage as a scapegoat and stop being too scared to focus on the real issues. Rest assured, those who were miserable in their marriage before gay marriage, will be miserable after. Don't worry.

How I forget that when things affect people, how quickly they change. After all the Bible (which is without a doubt where your basis of opinion) forbids divorce but yet doesn't stop preachers from marrying folks on their 2nd or 3rd mate! But you know, if it applies to you there's a work around, if it doesn't and applies to someone else, let's throw the book at them!

Tammy said...

3. So, I believe that rather than redefining marriage, gay people should just live with it. Just like the 70% of black women who want to be married but AREN'T.

Wanting to be married and having no mate and wanting to be married with a partner and can not because you are gay are not the same thing.

I really thought you were joking about this because, this is such an outlandish statement, I didn't think you were serious.

According to you, gay people should just live with injustice...because it makes you feel better? hahaha. sorry, no dice!

We need to evolve into a society where people don't feel the need to put someone else down in order for them to be right. That we don't need this adversarial relationship. Black vs. white, gay vs. straight.

Arguments like yours are at best laughable, thanks for the comic relief. And at worse, a sad reflection on how far we have not come in love, tolerance and respect for all people.

4. If marriage is a civil rights, then the liberals have a new set of victims -- single people who want to be married but are not, right? Yes, I am aware that this is ridiculous just as ridiculous as gay people saying that marriage is a civil right.

How does one follow the other? These two statements are not even connected so it only follows that your conclusion is flawed.

"If marriage is a civil right THEN liberals have a new set of victims" HUH?? REALLY? WHERE IS THAT PROVED? It's not, you can't prove that (heck, no one can!), therefore its INVALID. Your conclusion does not stand.

CBW--- You are so misinformed it's scary...and to think you vote!

I don't think you mean't any harm or are a bad person, I think you are totally clueless when it comes to this topic. I hope you've changed your view since the writing of this post.

Anonymous said...

Thanks to Dr great oshogum that i melt on this site. i am Ama Oaikhena from California . i was an HIV/AIDS victim. i had this sickness for over five years i do visit hospital always before the virus grow from HIV to AIDS. I was just at the point of death with shame after i have lose every thing in life even my marriage and my unborn child until my close relative direct me to this site to look for Dr great oshogum for healing and cleaning. when i read the testimony people say of his good works i quickly is cell phone number to get in touch with him immediately because i sold all my computer and valuable things to get drugs and pay bills. It so amazing to see my self back to my feet with every thing i have lost. i am very happy because Dr oshogum did not only cure my sickness but he restructure my life by bringing back
my man and every thing i lost to the course of this sickness(HIV/AIDS). i do not really no where to start from in appreciating you Dr oshogum and the author of this site. please my people out there do not play with you problem, go out and seeks for the help of great oshogum he heal me without future problem or hidden charges. now i am free from HIV/Aids and MY wife, my joy and happiness are back. please with out a second choice go contact great Dr oshogum for the betterment of your life.
CONTACT HIM VIA EMAIL
oshogumspelltemple@live.com
you can also can him with +2348189075265

oshogumspelltemple@live.com
you can also can him with +2348189075265
posted by Ama Oaikhena