O.K., sorry, if Obama being president motivates ANYONE (Black or Not) to strive further than they were, more power to them...
DJBA~(black or not) were not inspired until Barack Obama came on the scene. Honestly, if they were not inspired, ambitious or even hopeful until this last election then they are just LOSERS and will continue to be in spite of their inspiration in the person of O-BA-MA.It's embarrassing to me to hear young black people say this and grates the very core of my being. My daughter had to write an essay about how Barack Obama inspired her....Needless to say I was livid. She knew that she had better dodge that question or set them straight. My kid was inspired because of her parents, grandparents,and teachers. But in spite of inspiration she is aware that there are expectations placed on her and she doesn't have the luxury of not meeting them.
"...in spite of inspiration she is aware that there are expectations placed on her and she doesn't have the luxury of not meeting them." (DJBA)<<THAT (expectation) is the key.EVERYONE wants their kids to do well, but many people don't have the will to demand/EXPECT their children to succeed at all costs.Jews tend to be extremely entreprenurial and excel in education and the professions (law, medicine, accounting, etc.)...there are many people who hate them for this, but those are the very people who should be emulating the ways of the people they revile. Like all groups, they have their flaws, but their focus on education and their turning that into success cannot be denied and there's a lot that can be learned from them...and one of those things is EXPECTING kids to succeeed and not just "wanting" or "inspiring" them to succeed.
@JMK and CBW:You both (and ZO) are realllllyy sounding like "haters". This is a new generation, if Barack Obama winning the presidency inspires someone to STRIVE harder to achieve, so be it. With me, my parents were good role models, as was Colin Powell now when I was in the military, RW Schambach's story and person inspires me as a minister, I don't see how Barack inspiring is a problem. Heck, honestly, I am somewhat inspired by his demeanor, it makes me think about my own. JMK, of course inspiration alone is not enough, but IS a starting point. I am not mad that Barack has INSPIRED, now lets hope that parents, teachers, coaches, ministers, etc., etc. help in the more practical ways.Heck, I think that urban Black children should be inspired by a whole LOT of things, the endurance of our ancestors during true adversity, Marcus Garvey, Fredrick Douglas, Dubious, King, Shabazz and as Christians by the stories of Jesus, the prophets, and the apostles, BUT I ain't mad if inspiration comes from them seeing Barack do what MANY people said could NOT be done in this lifetime.BUT, going from being “inspired” by Jay Z, 50 Cent, Snoop Dogg or whomever dunks a basketball or can run a touchdown to who is President of the United States, is NOT something I am willing to “complain” about.
"BUT, going from being “inspired” by Jay Z, 50 Cent, Snoop Dogg or whomever dunks a basketball or can run a touchdown to who is President of the United States, is NOT something I am willing to “complain” about." (DJBA)Well, I certainly can't argue that. However, it's a sad commentary on us as parents if our children didn't feel any compulsion to succeed until the ascension of Barack Obama. It's very sad. So yeah, for the little losers and their loser parents for finally getting inspired to be a doctor, lawyer, or president.
@CBW:“Well, I certainly can't argue that. However, it's a sad commentary on us as parents if our children didn't feel any compulsion to succeed until the ascension of Barack Obama. It's very sad.”Really CBW, if that were truly the case, there would be no Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Michael Steel, JC Watts, Michelle Obama, Jesse Jackson Jr., Dick Parsons, Denzel Washington, Spike Lee, Lawrence Fishbourne, Michael Jordan, you, me, CF, Uptown, etc., etc., etc.This is a generational thing, he is inspiring to young folk more so than who inspired US, because he is tangible to them NOW. I think Zo is blowing this WAY out of proportion.
DJBA~I don't think Zo is blowing the Affirmative Action thing out of proportion--although I think Affirmative action issue is a double-edged sword. However, I will admit that the "inspiration" thing is a pet peeve for me and I have a uncommon visceral reaction to hearing young people say this. I think some of it has to do with my belief that so much about Barack Obama is fraudulent. Have you seen the video of the you boys marching and shouting the cadence Alpha & Omega? I think that was just shameful so I guess I lump all young people who say they are inspired into the same category of those boys saying "now because of Barack Obama I can be _________ (fill-in the blank). That is disturbing! They can be and could have been _________ (fill-in the blank) whether or not Barack Obama exists in the world. I just can't imagine what would possess the teacher or parents to allow these kids to do and say that.
@CBW:Well, I think that "Affirmative Action" was and is helpful, I think "quotas" are not helpful. My problem with "AA" is that some acted as this was some Holy Grail; I believe that the African American community would benefit much more in investing all of our resources and time into elementary and middle schools to get our children very prepared for highs school and college. We need to make our curriculum TOUGHER and BETTER than our White counterparts, our churches need to create schools and community centers that focus on Math and Science (and even art and the humanities) to give our kids that much more of a head start in things, so that when they get to college, these young African American children shine and there is NO DOUBT why they are there.Further, I'm tired of hearing WHITE folks moan and complain about "AA" programs, I am all for overwhelming force, in this case educating our kids at a higher standard than the general population, I want our kids to be educated BETTER early on. We don't have to wait for the federal government to help us, we can do that on a community level.But hey, I want to hire 1,000 mecrenaries and take over Liberia too, so I guess I can dream...
“JMK, of course inspiration alone is not enough, but IS a starting point. I am not mad that Barack has INSPIRED, now lets hope that parents, teachers, coaches, ministers, etc., etc. help in the more practical ways.” (DJBA)<<It’s not about disliking the idea of “inspiration” or role models, nor even about why external inspiration is not a substitute for family’s instilling the qualities, like self-discipline, duty, honor, a sense of shame, etc. in terms of breeding success.It comes down to the fact that ideas like external “inspiration” and “role models” spring from the ill-conceived “Self-esteem” viewpoint.M. Scott Peck made a great, though sadly overlooked insight about how flawed focusing on “Self-esteem” can be, in his book Children of the Lie.He found, contrary what is popularly believed, that most students who perform poorly academically, tend to have relatively HIGH “self esteem”, basing their view of themselves on other things, like popularity, etc.Likewise, he found that most academically exceptional children tend to have relatively LOW “self esteem.” Those students were rarely, if ever felt satisfied or “good about themselves” and were always pushing themselves do better.That finding was consistent with a study Dr. Peck with the U.S. Army, which was trying to find out why some Officer Training recruits did exceptionally well, while others with very similar aptitudes and backgrounds performed mediocre, at best.What Dr. Peck found out about those exceptional recruits were that none of these recruits ever worried whether they were the first or the last to finish any given exam, but most common to all was that when Dr. Peck asked them what was the most important thing in their life, they all answered “MYSELF,” not “my family”, “my country”, “my job”, etc. They all recognized that without their taking care of themselves first, they couldn’t help anyone else.By comparison, when Dr. Peck was allowed to interview a group of nearly two dozen convicted serial killers, when they were asked the same question, “What’s the most important thing in your life,” they all answered “How people see me,” or “the respect of others”, in short, “my self-esteem”.That makes perfect sense, given that these people rely on their ability to “fool others”, to come off as “caring, decent people,” otherwise, they’d never be able to take advantage of their hapless victims.M. Scott Peck’s Children of the Lie puts the LIE to the idea that “self esteem” is key for success in school or in life. It SHOULD be required reading for ALL educators in the U.S.
"Well, I think that "Affirmative Action" was and is helpful, I think "quotas" are not helpful." (DJBA)<<The entirity of "Affirmative Action" has long agon become "race and gender-based preferences."There has never been ANY controversy over "outreach" or "remedial training," etc., but that's NOT what AA has become.What AA is famous for is separate and unequal standards, such as the now infamous NYPD Entrance Exam that had a pssing grade of 70 for whites and Asians, 65 for Hispanics and 60 for blacks. It has also become infamous by Colleges choosing to use "race/ethnicity" as a "positive parameter" often outweighing either SAT scores and HS grades.The defense of AA's race-bsed preferences make clear that the very concept of AA is rooted in Left-wing paternalism - that blacks can't compete with other groups.Those opposed to it, don't just revile it because it stands squarely against such basic American concepts as "equality before the law" and "equality of opportunity" (the ability of ALL to be judged on the SAME criteria), but also because they reject the view of blacks as innately inferior to other groups.
@JMK:“It comes down to the fact that ideas like external “inspiration” and “role models” spring from the ill-conceived “Self-esteem” viewpoint.”Well, I subscribe to a Biblical worldview, which you obviously don’t.The concept of being inspired by and measuring oneself to role models and /or mentors I see in Elijah and Elisha, Moses and Joshua, Abraham and Jacob, Jesus and the Apostles, Paul and Timothy, etc., etc.I find Rabbi Hillel an inspiration and a role model whom I carry over from my time in Judaism.Inspiration and role models can come from historical people, fictional characters and of course the people that we meet day to day and from people who are prominent in our contemporary society.When I was at MCRD San Diego Ca, 3rd Battalion, Kilo Co., a couple of my Drill Instructors were role models to me, and still are.So, I’m sorry JMK, I don’t fnd “role models” or “inspiration from people” problematic or tied to "self esteem" in the way that you forward, it is who we CHOOSE to emulate which can be an issue.
@JMK:“The defense of AA's race-bsed preferences make clear that the very concept of AA is rooted in Left-wing paternalism - that blacks can't compete with other groups.”Well, I don’t think that how some companies and schools try to even out the playing field is correct. I think th eobjective of Affirmative Action was to: " The impetus towards affirmative action is twofold: to maximize the benefits of diversity in all levels of society, and to redress disadvantages due to overt, institutional, or involuntary discrimination."That is not a problem, but lowering test scores and mandating qutas is not the way to really deal with discrimination.Personally, I’m tired of hearing Whites b!7@# and complain about something that has done so little to actually advance African Americans in general in the US.The whole thing would not have been necessary had Whites actually, I don’t know, HIRED or Admitted people who WERE qualified and were denied jobs / scholarships / college entrance predicated on simply on RACE to begin with.Personally, it is my opinion, hope, desire and intention to bring the focus on preparing our children (African American children) to be BETTER than their colleagues by raising our COMMUNITY standards and academic and fiscal support for them within our communities, through our churches, mosques, yeshivas (yes Black Jews have those too) and whatever else we have so that when they take those ACT’s and SAT’s they kick the a$$e$ of White kids, so no White kid can b!7@# that some “Black” kid stole their spot.But hey, that’s why I home school my children. I took them out of public school when I had my oldest (then in seventh grade) write his project / paper using MLA standards and his teacher called and told me “not to have him write that way”, to which I responded “ he will have to when he is in college, why wait to teach him that?” to which she just responded: “hey, I undertsand, butthat’s for later, so have him re-wriet the paper with her 7th grade standard” (a standard that would have no use to my son if he ever were to write colligiate papers.At that point, time to give my children everything and every advantage we could possibly give them. We couldn't afford the posh private shcools, so we went the route of PICKING A CURRICALEM, getting with some other like minded parents who had strengths in discipline sI didn't (i.e. Math and Science) and I help with the Social / Political - History / Religion) and do what we CAN. They have tutoring attend junior college classes (my 16 and 14 year old) so when THEY get to college, THEY will be prepared to kick a$$.I intend to start a private school that uses some of what I have learned in home schooling to be replicated in the community and hopefully the public schools in Chicago are shamed to follow along. Curriculum is everything.
"So, I’m sorry JMK, I don’t fnd “role models” or “inspiration from people” problematic or tied to "self esteem" in the way that you forward..." (DJBA)<<The role models/external inspiration mantra is part and parcel of today's "feel good", "everyone is equally valuable" nonsense that actually undermines personal initiative and achievement.Dr. Peck's study that found that academically excellent students tend to have LOWER "self esteem" than others, demonstrates clearly why that ideology is so corrosive.
@JMK:“The role models/external inspiration mantra is part and parcel of today's "feel good", "everyone is equally valuable" nonsense that actually undermines personal initiative and achievement.”Sorry, I don’t see that. When Elijah was Elisha’s role model, there was no: “Everyone Is equal” crap, neither when Moses INSPIRED Joshua to Emulate Him, neither when Michael Jordan wasd inspired by Dr. J, or Me being inspired by Colin Powell. Colin Powell “inspiring” me in the military, had nothing to do with “everyone is equal”, if everyone were, then my inspiration from Colin Powell, and my emulating him wouldn’t have mattered, as the MERITORIOUS promotions I got to the ranks of Corporal and Sergeant just would have went to everyone with same time in grade and time in service.Secretary Powell (General Powell) and my Drill Instructors INSPIRED me and WERE role models., that didn’t remove the part “I” had to do.People can inspire people to do all kinds of things; it is who one emulates that becomes the issue. Every one should have equal access to tools that can better their lives, education is one of those tools, what the person does with that is on them.
"I think th eobjective of Affirmative Action was to: " The impetus towards affirmative action is twofold: to maximize the benefits of diversity in all levels of society, and to redress disadvantages due to overt, institutional, or involuntary discrimination.""That is not a problem, but lowering test scores and mandating qutas is not the way to really deal with discrimination." (DJBA)<<Sadly the latter has been part and parcel of the implementaion of the former's agenda...and while "quotas" have NOT been widely used in recent years, race-based preferences have been.And again, one major flaw with such policies is that they are (WITHOUT QUESTION) rooted in the presumed inferiority of blacks.My wife was, fortunately for her, educated in Jamaica, where she was skipped twice in grammar school. She was and remains a very driven individual.Many of the same kinds of kids here, wind up failing because a Union-driven and controlled "educational system" fails them.<<<<"Personally, I’m tired of hearing Whites b!7@# and complain about something that has done so little to actually advance African Americans in general in the US." (DJBA)<<That's tough, because it's NOT about "what'd good for blacks or any other ethnic group," it's about eliminating separate and unequal standards....something far more vital than the the interests of one segment of society.In 1986, I worked in an Engine Co in East Harlem. They shared quarters with a Tower Ladder and the 12th Battalion. A Battalion Chief, named Reggie J, had worked with my father when my Dad was a Battalion Chief and Chief J was a fireman in the 44th Battalion in Brownsville Brooklyn.Chief J had grown up in the Virgin Islands and did well in school. He passed every promotional exam he ever took and he greatly resented the quotas and preferences that came into vogue in the Civil Service in the early 1970s. He felt they stigmatized high-achieving blacks, like himself and demeaned all blacks with the label of "presumed incompetence." Passing each promotional exam in the FDNY takes, on average, about 1000 to 1200 hours of studying.Unfortunately, the FDNY's 1985 Lieutenant's exam was compromised when a black Captain, who'd worked on the exam, delivered an answer key to the black fraternal organization (the Vulcan Society). The exam was scuttled and re-given in 1986, but one of the defenses used by those who fought against scuttleing the first comprromised exam and giving a new one, was "that cheating didn't result in many more blacks passing that exam."You can imagine how that played out across the job. "They couldn't even pass the test with the answer key in their possession," and stuff like that.THAT was, perhaps, the dumbest defense one could possibly make!While I'm sure the people who made it meant well, they smeared not only guys like Chief J, but an entire group of people unwarrantedly.I commend you for doing right by your own kids and hope their role models will come from their own family, rather than from outside sources.
@JMK:"That's tough, because it's NOT about "what'd good for blacks or any other ethnic group," it's about eliminating separate and unequal standards....something far more vital than the the interests of one segment of society."No problem with that, I guess it only took some White people 400 years of unequal slanted towards them in ALL case and 30 years of unequal going against them in SOME Cases to decide: "Hey, let's just be FAIR and not do things RACE BASED". Better late then never I suppose...
"No problem with that, I guess it only took some White people 400 years of unequal slanted towards them in ALL case and 30 years of unequal going against them in SOME Cases to decide: "Hey, let's just be FAIR and not do things RACE BASED"...." (DJBA)<<Please!Try basing at leaqst some of your arguments in reality.Most whites weren't here even 100 years ago, let alone 400.Moreover, neither chattel slavery, nor Jim Crow were EVER backed by the Federal government. They were, in fact, limited to a few southern states.Today's race-based preferences are, in fact, the FIRST Federally recognized and universal separate and unequal standards.There are actually loons in this country who think America has had more racial issues than other countries...NOT SO. In almost every area where different races and tribal ethnicities co-exist, the result is almost universally tension and oppresssion by the predominant group.America and England where among the very FIRST nations on earth to eradicate chattel slavery (it STILL exists throughout much of Asia, the Mideast and most of sub-Saharan Africa) and such preferences for the majority...to date, few, very FEW nations outside Western Europe and America have done that.So this idea that America's sins were somehow unique to this country is so inane as to be unworthy of serious consideration.Ironically enough those SAME "sins" are on display in the rest of the world, especially in much of Asia, most of the Mideast and sub-Saharan Africa, daily.Is it hard for blacks and whites to get good positions in predominantly Asian nations?You bet and only some of that is due to the innate anti-non-Asian sentiment held by the majority in those places. The bulk of it is really do to the fact that most people just feel comfortable dealing with people of the same background.In America we're looking to get passed that, the rest of the world seems to be decades (in the case of even Western Europe) and perhaps centuries (in the case of much of Asia, the Mideast and most of sub-Saharan Africa) behind us.But getting passed that requires that ALL ethnic groups surrender that "comfort/preference for their own group"....otherwise it won't work at all.
@JMK:"Most whites weren't here even 100 years ago, let alone 400."No, those late arrivals just benefited from the already skewed social realities here. Blacks, being on the bottom, that’s how this country was made.you wrote: "Moreover, neither chattel slavery, nor Jim Crow were EVER backed by the Federal government. They were, in fact, limited to a few southern states."O.K., again do not try to drive this discussion purposely off course and focus on “slavery” and such in the South, you are too smart to be playing dumb here. Slavery and Jim Crow were only part of the overall problem that we still have in some form today, that is the sociological pattern of this country, where, even in the NORTH Blacks were considered 2nd or 3rd class citizens, systematically denied human let alone civil rights.Now if you want to continue to be deceptive in how you are framing the sociological realities we are discussing, then we might as well stop talking on this subject now.You wrote: “So this idea that America's sins were somehow unique to this country is so inane as to be unworthy of serious consideration”That is of no consequence, I don’t really give a crap what other countries did, or how Rome and Egypt had slaves, or how slavery is in Sudan and other places now.Doesn’t change the fact that what happened here in THIS COUNTRY, the one I live in, served for and am a citizen of treated my ancestors as recently as my Father in Mississippi back in the day.See this is why you get called racist by uptown, you have no understanding of the actuality you are talking about.
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